Sexism in Video Games

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Postby Feydakin » Wed Apr 06, 2016 8:38 pm

So this has been a hot button topic in the gaming world for a few years now especially. Specifically lately there has been what has been hashtagged #buttgate, where the character from Blizzard's "Overwatch" had some concept art where she posed sort of in a pinup style with her bum pointed toward the camera.

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That is actually the changed image. The old one was similar, but they changed it because of an outcry on their official forums that it was sexist.

Now look, I freely admit that there is sexism and misogyny aplenty in the gaming industry. However, I think there is just as much politically correct SJW bullshit out there that is just people trying to stir up shit so they can craft the wheels for their newest bandwagon.

This was recently brought up in an article on a gaming website that I frequent... but apparently the moderators there thought my opposing viewpoint was SO offensive that they deleted my post.

I am just curious; Am I that far off on this? I didn't find that the artist had any ill intent, and it wasn't hyper-sexualized or offensive. What I found offensive were people's reactions to it and Blizzards response.

http://massivelyop.com/2016/04/06/blizzard-swapped-tracers-butt-pose-in-overwatch-with-a-different-butt-pose/
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Postby moonshine » Wed Apr 06, 2016 8:55 pm

Why is having sex in something bad? Sex sells and sex is the reason we are all here. There nothing perverse or sexist about looking at titillating images videos or games. There has always be sex in art and these SJW types need to get off the tumblr and worry about the real issues not trying to erode freedom of expression in art.
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Postby PhlawlessPhelon » Wed Apr 06, 2016 8:58 pm

While I do think more effort should be made by the game industry to be inclusive of females. That being said, I think if something like this offends someone so much, then they should simply not buy the video game.
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Postby ink » Wed Apr 06, 2016 8:59 pm

moonshine wrote:Why is having sex in something bad? Sex sells and sex is the reason we are all here. There nothing perverse or sexist about looking at titillating images videos or games. There has always be sex in art and these SJW types need to get off the tumblr and worry about the real issues not trying to erode freedom of expression in art.


i have to agree, its all art. its all subjective.. why all the sudden uproar? :/
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Postby Feydakin » Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:06 pm

PhlawlessPhelon wrote:While I do think more effort should be made by the game industry to be inclusive of females. That being said, I think if something like this offends someone so much, then they should simply not buy the video game.


There are tons of examples of strong, empowered female characters in video games especially in the last several years. I just think that the old guard is still pandering to what they perceive as their main demographic (young males), when in fact polls and studies suggest that females make up in some cases 50% or more of the gaming populace these days. Still, It's way more inclusive now than it's ever been.

As for tuning out or not participating if you find something offensive; In a perfect world... However people for some reason feel the need to dictate to everyone around them how they should act, feel, what games I should play, how I should play, etc. If it wasn't for that, I wouldn't care what these idiots thought, but because it's now effecting my ability to play the games I want, I have to care...
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Postby Zansi'Vara » Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:06 pm

I don't think you're that far off, but SJWs in general do not like to confront opposing viewpoints. From everything I've seen, I've been banned, screamed at, mobbed, called a rape apologist and a misogynist, told to kill myself, etc. by SJWs viciously defending their ideology.

You are correct, in that there is a lot of SJW bullshit spread around because SJWs solely exist to be offended at things and mob them until they are taken down and apologized. They do not seem to serve a function other than bitching and moaning in large numbers. Any chance they get to do so, they will take. If it gets someone or something that they disagree with destroyed at the same time, all the better.

Also, I don't see how that's even a sexy pose. I mean, it's clearly similar to the pinup picture, but literally the only uncovered part of her skin is her face, and honestly it doesn't even seem like a sexually inviting pose. From the position of her legs I would say she's just about to leave the ground to do a modified butterfly kick.

But again, SJWs will bitch and moan whenever given the chance, so I am not surprised they would flip their shit over this. Personally, I think it shows her character well, and I don't think that animated women looking feminine in a single character frame is sexist. I think calling it such demeans the word sexism and takes away focus from issues of actual sexism.
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Postby Feydakin » Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:08 pm

ink wrote:
moonshine wrote:Why is having sex in something bad? Sex sells and sex is the reason we are all here. There nothing perverse or sexist about looking at titillating images videos or games. There has always be sex in art and these SJW types need to get off the tumblr and worry about the real issues not trying to erode freedom of expression in art.


i have to agree, its all art. its all subjective.. why all the sudden uproar? :/


I agree with that, and I'm glad that you guys brought up video games as a form of "Art". Another topic for another thread (note to self); but many people don't see video games as an art form, and so any arguments that you'd make inferring that to them are rendered moot.
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Postby Zansi'Vara » Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:14 pm

Feydakin wrote:I just think that the old guard is still pandering to what they perceive as their main demographic (young males), when in fact polls and studies suggest that females make up in some cases 50% or more of the gaming populace these days. Still, It's way more inclusive now than it's ever been.


That is true, on an average count of all "game" players, women now make up about 50%, but you also have to take into account that the LARGE majority of those women interviewed that made that number so high are actually playing casual mobile games on their smartphones. Yes, it still counts as gaming, but it is important to make not that they do NOT make up 50% of the console and PC gaming markets, where this game will be released. That IS still a majority young men demographic.

I don't know how much weight it holds in the argument, but I thought it was worth mentioning that stipulation because I have seen that 50% figure used to support some pretty major false narratives and I don't want that to happen here. :P
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Postby Feydakin » Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:19 pm

I don't consider mobile only gamers in my thinking (dirty casuals! :D), but there are sectors of the gaming community at large that are definitely 50% or more women that aren't mobile games. For instance MMO and RPG players, and PC gaming in particular. I see tons of female gamers in those sectors. Anecdotal for sure, but I've been playing games of all kinds since the '70s and definitely noticed a huge uptick in female gamers over the last 20 years, and the demographic keeps growing and expanding to different types of gaming. I for one welcome it, because I find female gamers tend to have more passion in some cases and different insights that make things interesting.
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Postby Zansi'Vara » Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:26 pm

Feydakin wrote:I don't consider mobile only gamers in my thinking (dirty casuals! :D), but there are sectors of the gaming community at large that are definitely 50% or more women that aren't mobile games. For instance MMO and RPG players, and PC gaming in particular. I see tons of female gamers in those sectors. Anecdotal for sure, but I've been playing games of all kinds since the '70s and definitely noticed a huge uptick in female gamers over the last 20 years, and the demographic keeps growing and expanding to different types of gaming. I for one welcome it, because I find female gamers tend to have more passion in some cases and different insights that make things interesting.


I welcome it as well, but I wish there weren't so many SJWs trying to change gaming to fit their collective idea of what it should be. Letting SJWs change video games is like letting Pope Paul IV change your statues. They will permanently deface and destroy them beyond repair, all the while chanting that this is all for the greater good, because they know better than you.
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Postby Ron » Wed Apr 06, 2016 11:49 pm

The actual quote from Jeffrey Kaplan in the original thread on Battle.net made by the over sensitive nut job that reads like a troll post is thus

Jeff wrote:Well, that escalated quickly…

While I stand by my previous comment, I realize I should have been more clear. As the game director, I have final creative say over what does or does not go into the game. With this particular decision, it was an easy one to make—not just for me, but for the art team as well. We actually already have an alternate pose that we love and we feel speaks more to the character of Tracer. We weren’t entirely happy with the original pose, it was always one that we wrestled with creatively. That the pose had been called into question from an appropriateness standpoint by players in our community did help influence our decision—getting that kind of feedback is part of the reason we’re holding a closed beta test—but it wasn’t the only factor. We made the decision to go with a different pose in part because we shared some of the same concerns, but also because we wanted to create something better.

We wouldn’t do anything to sacrifice our creative vision for Overwatch, and we’re not going to remove something solely because someone may take issue with it. Our goal isn’t to water down or homogenize the world, or the diverse cast of heroes we’ve built within it. We have poured so much of our heart and souls into this game that it would be a travesty for us to do so.

We understand that not everyone will agree with our decision, and that’s okay. That’s what these kinds of public tests are for. This wasn’t pandering or caving, though. This was the right call from our perspective, and we think the game will be just as fun the next time you play it.

If it isn’t, feel free to continue sharing your concerns, thoughts, and feedback about this and other issues you may have with the game, please just keep the discussion respectful.

Thanks,

jeffrey


If you wanted to see the post that started the latest Gaming meme, because face it, that's exactly what it is now. (See Total Biscuits video lampooning the whole situation by oversexualising Winston, the ape.)

SJW Daddy wrote: 63 Posts
So I wanted to start off by saying, I think the development team has done a pretty great job with the cast of female hero's in Overwatch. They are diverse, interesting, and compelling. From Mei to Zarya to Widowmaker the female cast reflects a large spectrum of personalities and player fantasies.

With that being said, lets talk about Tracer. From a marketing standpoint, she's the star of the show. She's a great hero. When we look at the way she's portrayed in promotional media, lore, and art in game we know a few things about her..

She's Fast.
She's Silly.
She's Kind.
She's a good Friend.
Her body seems to be comprised of about 95% spunk.

Almost all of her art reflects this. She's got cool skins: http://static.mnium.org/images/contenu/actus/Overwatch/Heros/overwatch_skin-tracer_11_hd.jpg

She's got fun poses:
http://cdn.blizzardwatch.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Tracer_waving_header.jpg

She's got amazing victory animations:
https://youtu.be/MFbXd3KIvhQ?t=224

All of this art reinforces the great character you've built around tracer.

Then out of seemingly no where we have this pose:
http://overwatch.blizzplanet.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/tracer-victory-pose-2-over-the-shoulder.png

WHAT? What about this pose has anything to do with the character you're building in tracer? It's not fun, its not silly, it has nothing to do with being a fast elite killer. It just reduces tracer to another bland female sex symbol.

We aren't looking at a widowmaker pose here, this isn't a character who is in part defined by flaunting her sexuality. This pose says to the player base, oh we've got all these cool diverse characters, but at any moment we are willing to reduce them to sex symbols to help boost our investment game.

Getting art into a triple A game isn't a small task, it has to go through an implementer, a team lead, an art director, and a creative director. This is a team effort. And I believe the team is responsible for upholding the great example overwatch can set to the rest of the industry for creating strong female characters.

I have a young daughter that everyday when I wake up wants to watch the recall trailer again. She knows who tracer is, and as she grows up, she can grow up alongside these characters.

What I'm asking is that as you continue to add to the overwatch cast and investment elements, you double down on your commitment to create strong female characters. You've been doing a good job so far, but shipping with a tracer pose like this undermines so much of the good you've already done.


If you read the full thread(Or parse through it.) You'll see the majority of normal people didn't give a shit about the pose one way or another. It's a pose. It's not that important of an issue. It's people creating a problem for the sake of entertainment. Gamers seem to be the most volatile group of people because everything has to have controversy surrounding it.

What I hate most about the SJW's post isn't the criticism of the game's art. That's fair enough from a subjective point of view. What I hate is that he resorts to the politician's argument. "WONT SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN" It's meant to imply that if you dont fix this my daughter is going to grow up into a whore.

Think about that. If we don't filter out what his daughter sees then she obviously will be ruined for life. She cant possibly learn to have subjective opinions by herself.

TBH The whole thing is ridiculous.


Full Battle.net thread where all this stupidity started: http://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20743015583?page=1



As far as the root issue in the title of your post. Sexism in Video Games my personal belief is that the industry at large has gone miles ahead of what used to be the norm. Sex still sells, and their are plenty of scantily clad women in games. The majority of those games are meant to appeal to gaming's biggest demographic. Adolescent males.

I don't understand the problem with that. Developers aren't generous artistic gods who create games purely out of the artistic merits of them. They make them to make money. To provide for themselves.

All of that being said their are still hundreds of A+ games that feature either A.) No sexism at all. or B.) Strong Female Leads or both.

I don't see sexism in video games as an issue.


I kind of word spooged most of that, so if it's incoherrent, I'm sorry.
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Postby AliceElite » Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:26 am

Okay, um WOW I have A LOT of emotions on this, as the resident Feminist Bitch and I am

//reserving

this for when I have like 45 minutes to write a really intense, awesome, well thought out and not overly ragey post.

Oh man, yall are gonna get it. ;)
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Postby Zansi'Vara » Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:30 am

Ha ha ha, I'm excited to see what you think. ^_^
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Postby Pawly » Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:39 am

AliceElite wrote:.....
Oh man, yall are gonna get it. ;)

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Postby Ron » Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:42 am

Pawly wrote:
AliceElite wrote:.....
Oh man, yall are gonna get it. ;)

http://i.imgur.com/hafzaqZ.gif
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Postby Feydakin » Thu Apr 07, 2016 1:42 am

Bubbles wrote:*a lot of words and stuff I agree with*


I had gone back and read the original thread on the official forums when I first heard about this a few days ago... I wasn't so much pointing at this as a legitimate case of sexism, as clearly this guy is a SJW stirring up shit for the usual nonsensical reasons. I was more curious about starting a discourse regarding the overall question as to how much people feel that sexism is a problem in gaming (not just video gaming, but primarily). I probably should have posted the original links so people had some context for the example I gave, so thanks for that.

I hope that no one thinks I am belittling people's feelings regarding sexism, real sexism and misogyny, because I am not...
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Postby Ron » Thu Apr 07, 2016 2:10 am

Feydakin wrote:
Bubbles wrote:*a lot of words and stuff I agree with*


I had gone back and read the original thread on the official forums when I first heard about this a few days ago... I wasn't so much pointing at this as a legitimate case of sexism, as clearly this guy is a SJW stirring up shit for the usual nonsensical reasons. I was more curious about starting a discourse regarding the overall question as to how much people feel that sexism is a problem in gaming (not just video gaming, but primarily). I probably should have posted the original links so people had some context for the example I gave, so thanks for that.

I hope that no one thinks I am belittling people's feelings regarding sexism, real sexism and misogyny, because I am not...


It's a real issue, or it was a much bigger issue.

There was a time when we were kids when the mantra WAS games are for boys not girls. I'm happy with the direction the industry is going though. Im happy that there are so few games that could be defined as gender specific.

I'm happy that Lara Croft isn't a pair of triangle tits and short shorts. She's real and human and strong and weak and so beautifully designed of a character that I hadn't felt so emotionally invested in an action game before or since. (Tomb Raider 2013) I haven't played Rise of the Tomb Raider yet, so I don't know if it carries the same themes.

I'm trying to think of a modern game where Sexism is evident. Outside of some JRPGs MMO's can get pretty weird. Terra oversexualizes men and women to an absurd degree, it's basically comedy with some of the armor designs.

I know fantasy games tend to give men the beafy plate armor and women a metal G string but even that trend is disappearing. Going through the Heroes of the Storm roster I don't really see anyone that's over sexed. Nova on quad skates maybe.


But also maybe I'm just missing the point.
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Postby ink » Thu Apr 07, 2016 2:10 am

Pawly wrote:
AliceElite wrote:.....
Oh man, yall are gonna get it. ;)

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:O

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Postby cerrodepedro » Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:30 pm

Maybe the industry is less upsetting to me than a huge swath the gamers themselves. Sure, it's asinine that dramatically more portrayed woman characters in games are sex objects than men, but it doesn't even compare to behaviors of gamers themselves. If it's normal to expect rape threats and murder threats and homophobic epithets and sexist bullshit when gaming online because of some layer of separation or anonymity, I'm going to call the culture that supports it inferior. That means that while I like to play CoD and Halo online and even some of those RPGs (still too scared of the disappointment to try Skyrim's online version) as much as the next person, I'm going to continue to belittle and deride the culture that permits that shit. "Gamergate" bros make me feel like breaking things, including bones.

A broader conversation could start, outside of video game culture, about how a great deal of SJWs have problems like classism ("You don't know all this college speak about fighting oppression? GO DIE") and racism ("I feel uneasy around black men more than white men and that's totally normal and okay" or "you get a pass since all native cultures are sexist") and transphobia/trans antagonism/trans exclusion ("You may be a woman, but since you had passing privilege as a man before, you don't understand me. Also let's only talk about periods and child birth and breastfeeding because we've decided to exclude trans women"), that makes sense. Co parent has described narcissist people who take advantage of collective outrage tendencies to rise to the top of social hierarchies for being the most oppressed or most outraged as emotional terrorists. She's right.

All of this said, SJW hubris does not even begin to compare to institutional violence against collectively oppressed peoples. When social justice warriors are responsible for rape and genocide and war and starvation, get back to me. Most of both the incremental and revolutionary steps toward justice and equal opportunity enjoyed now can be attributed to some angry folks doing what they saw as right. People will bring up well-behaved examples like Martin Luther King, Jr., but um, he wasn't well-behaved and progressed to supporting much more drastic action than non-violent civil disobedience. It's why the FBI wanted him dead or otherwise neutralized.

Mob mentality among self-appointed social justice warriors has fucked me over personally. Shit gave me two weeks of suicidal ideation and anxiety. A lot of it had to do with the fact that the folks involved were ex-Mormons, and ex-Mormons have a bad tendency to go from one dogma to another rather quickly, to get self righteous in a hurry, and to desperately form any community they can that can resemble what they enjoyed in their church units (Catholics would know these as parishes). A lot of it also had to do with the fact that most of the people involved were also victims of sexual violence, and were very protective and rightly mistrusting of men in general. In any case, the good I've been able to obtain from even the mobs is immeasurable, and I'm able to see that without being a chickenshit asshole and throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Empathetic privileged people are going to be able to put themselves in those of the less privileged. It may be painful, but it's one of those things that I think are necessary for living a life with decency.
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Postby Pawly » Thu May 26, 2016 7:24 am

<looks left>

<looks right>

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Postby ink » Thu May 26, 2016 5:38 pm

:lol: pawly
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Postby Rivoc » Fri May 27, 2016 5:09 am

cerrodepedro wrote:Maybe the industry is less upsetting to me than a huge swath the gamers themselves. Sure, it's asinine that dramatically more portrayed woman characters in games are sex objects than men, but it doesn't even compare to behaviors of gamers themselves. If it's normal to expect rape threats and murder threats and homophobic epithets and sexist bullshit when gaming online because of some layer of separation or anonymity, I'm going to call the culture that supports it inferior. That means that while I like to play CoD and Halo online and even some of those RPGs (still too scared of the disappointment to try Skyrim's online version) as much as the next person, I'm going to continue to belittle and deride the culture that permits that shit. "Gamergate" bros make me feel like breaking things, including bones.

A broader conversation could start, outside of video game culture, about how a great deal of SJWs have problems like classism ("You don't know all this college speak about fighting oppression? GO DIE") and racism ("I feel uneasy around black men more than white men and that's totally normal and okay" or "you get a pass since all native cultures are sexist") and transphobia/trans antagonism/trans exclusion ("You may be a woman, but since you had passing privilege as a man before, you don't understand me. Also let's only talk about periods and child birth and breastfeeding because we've decided to exclude trans women"), that makes sense. Co parent has described narcissist people who take advantage of collective outrage tendencies to rise to the top of social hierarchies for being the most oppressed or most outraged as emotional terrorists. She's right.

All of this said, SJW hubris does not even begin to compare to institutional violence against collectively oppressed peoples. When social justice warriors are responsible for rape and genocide and war and starvation, get back to me. Most of both the incremental and revolutionary steps toward justice and equal opportunity enjoyed now can be attributed to some angry folks doing what they saw as right. People will bring up well-behaved examples like Martin Luther King, Jr., but um, he wasn't well-behaved and progressed to supporting much more drastic action than non-violent civil disobedience. It's why the FBI wanted him dead or otherwise neutralized.

Mob mentality among self-appointed social justice warriors has fucked me over personally. Shit gave me two weeks of suicidal ideation and anxiety. A lot of it had to do with the fact that the folks involved were ex-Mormons, and ex-Mormons have a bad tendency to go from one dogma to another rather quickly, to get self righteous in a hurry, and to desperately form any community they can that can resemble what they enjoyed in their church units (Catholics would know these as parishes). A lot of it also had to do with the fact that most of the people involved were also victims of sexual violence, and were very protective and rightly mistrusting of men in general. In any case, the good I've been able to obtain from even the mobs is immeasurable, and I'm able to see that without being a chickenshit asshole and throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Empathetic privileged people are going to be able to put themselves in those of the less privileged. It may be painful, but it's one of those things that I think are necessary for living a life with decency.


I couldn't agree more. And I blame the parents for not educating, and not being aware of their children's actions online and in college. When kids learn the importance of valuing others and respect, these behaviors don't tend to manifest so much.

Leave your kid alone online to look at and read YouTube comments all day, and that's where they start forming their values as the parent just think Timmy is online, playing a game or reading educated articles (which is 2% of the Internet???) and no wonder Timny thinks everyone who isn't him or share his values or skin color are pieces of trash. PAREBTS CAN NOT LEAVE TGEIR KIDS ALONE ONLINE FOR HOURS!!!! The most horrible shit in the world is always in the comments sections. Usually some comedy gold, followed by the most hateful shut you'll ever read. CHILDREN SHOULDNT BE EXPOSED TO THAT SHIT!!!! No wonder mob mentality and gamer gate bros exist if they're left alone to read and get values from the darkest spots on the Internet, often in the backyard of the most common places of the Internet.
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