The Bernie or Bust Logic

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Zansi'Vara
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Postby Zansi'Vara » Tue Apr 12, 2016 1:01 am

Shumaza wrote:In all reality zans, he really isn't a democratic socialist. He's really just the poster child for a true liberal capitalist. The thing is just that the left has moved so far away from their progressive roots of the 40's that he seems radical. If he were an actual democratic socialist he'd want to get rid of the over all capitalist economy and replace it with state controlled production, which he's not in the slightest.


Fair point, and another reason I don't like political labels. They don't really tell you anything about the politician themselves.
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Candeeoke
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Postby Candeeoke » Tue Apr 12, 2016 1:14 am

I'm Bernie or Bust --- well that's maybe not true - I voted Stein in 2012 and will possibly do so again. I'm honestly wondering if it might be possible that we see 4 people going for president. If the republicans deny Drumpf and he runs Independent and then Bernie, either doesn't get the nod or they deny him and then he runs independent, I think Bernie would win in that 4 way scenario.

Drumpf is an asshat. Without out a doubt he is bigoted and racist. I still truly think that he is just trying to get as many "ratings" as possible. He doesn't even know how the government works to get half the shit he wants passed.

On the same token - I don't think that Bernie is promising anything IMO. He actually knows how the gov't works and that even if he is president it will be hard to get things done. I do think that he will try with every fiber of his being. Just like if Drumpf becomes president he will work against everything that Drumpf tries to do.

I'm really interested to see what Bernie does in the Summer if he doesn't get the nomination. I really think a Drumpf/Cruz/Clinton/Sanders contest for President would be amazing. It would break the whole two party thing in a way that just having one independent couldn't.
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Postby Phara » Tue Apr 12, 2016 4:52 pm

bump cuz i love this topic and if i cant post in it, i will read intelligent shit
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Shumaza
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Postby Shumaza » Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:42 pm

I think if bernie doesn't get the nom then you will see a very large movement from his supporters for a write in. maybe not to win but at least to protest the system. I honestly don't think hillary can win this election.
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Postby Charmosa » Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:07 pm

I feel sick. Like I drunk the Kool aid yet again. You know I'm a bernie supporter. He says things that I believe in, things that make sense. Cut to video where you can see his stance never wavered. He's a man of the people! But. What I failed to do is my research. The relief I felt from hearing a politician, a politician running for president, saying reasonable things, thing I agree with. It led me to a false sense of security. Intelligent people around me agree, so I have even less reason to doubt. Hillary does herself great disservice by, well, everything she says during the debates. It seemed obvious, bernie is the best candidate. So why is hillary winning? Pessimism allowed me to write it off as the people not knowing what's in their own best interest. But maybe it's that bernie won't actually do shit if he's elected.

Here's a piece I just read this morning: https://medium.com/@robinalperstein/on-becoming-anti-bernie-ee87943ae699#.9zdjs44n7

I recommend reading the whole long thing, but I'll put in a few excerpts here. Even if you dispute some of the positive claims about hillary, let's just focus on facts about bernie. Facts no one around me seems to have noticed.

"... the estimates were based on the assumption that the U.S. economy would have an average growth at a 5% rate over his term... Reagan had achieved 4% twice in eight years, and Bill Clinton, five times, but 4% growth four years running? Never happened — and that was in better economic environments... Sanders was able to find a single economist to weigh in positively on his plan, but that analysis was ripped to shreds by most others, who showed that Sanders’ plan doesn’t add up on its own terms (estimates are something like a $1–2 trillion shortfall even at the 5% growth assumption). "

Before when anyone criticized his economic plan I dismissed the claim because I read and saw things like this: http://www.portside.org/2016-02-26/sanders-economic-plan-controversy

But onto the next part:

"...Sanders only got three bills through Congress (two of which were for naming post offices) ... so I looked at the legislation he introduced during his senate career. It turns out that, every year, year after year, he introduced the same legislation to make a point, and no one else ever seems to have signed on to it... while he has deep convictions about the ills of income inequality (which I wholeheartedly share), seems to be constitutionally incapable or unwilling to undertake the difficult task of actually coming up with workable, meaningful legislation"

So, let's look at that. If you listened to the health care summits (they were hard to listen to), you'll remember Obama had a hell of a time getting even the shittiest version of universal health care started. But even as president you can't just pass legislation, you have to get is passed by majority. So, I know bernie has "introduced legislation" on very important issues, but if they don't get passed what good are they? I feel for Bernie because I, too, would be pretty unwilling to compromise my morals. But I'm not a politician. And as I can now see, bernie doesn't really have moral high ground either.

"Attacking Hillary Clinton for supporting the 1994 crime bill that her husband signed when she was First Lady is intellectually dishonest. This is so on several grounds. First, his attacks omit that he himself voted for that bill; ... And when confronted about his dishonest and hypocritical approach to discussing the crime bill and his own support for it, he lied. He claimed that he supported it in part because it included an assault weapons ban. This is false. He voted in favor of an earlier version of the bill, which did not include that assault weapons ban... Sanders accepted $10,000 from a Hillary superPAC in 2006 when he was running for re-election... Sanders has over $23 million in unsourced, potentially illegal campaign contributions that he has been unable to explain. He’s received three separate letters from the FEC questioning thousands contributions including identifying thousands in excess of $2,700 (the individual limit), and he had $10,465,912 in aggregated $35 donations all made on a single day from a single zip code in DC that cannot be explained (that would mean 299,026 donations were made on one day from that zip code, when DC’s entire population is about 660,000)... Sanders supporters think Clinton is in the pocket of “big oil” — never mind that she’s received a total of about $308,000 from individuals in the oil and gas industry, compared to Sanders’ approximately $54,000, both drops in the bucket of their campaign totals... Sanders is also hypocritical because he attacks Clinton for not being transparent, but has failed to disclose his tax returns... Clinton has produced her returns going back about a decade and every major presidential candidate produces their tax returns. (Sanders has only now, after much pressure and ridicule, released the full return for 2014 — but only for 2014.)... His active role in pushing to get VT’s radioactive waste dumped in a poor Latino community in TX (Sierra Blanca) ... is ignored by his supporters and omitted by his campaign. And he worked hard to bring home the bacon for VT in the form a $1.35 billion war machine known as the F-35, which is the walking definition of waste in defense contracting."

We all know no politician, over the course of an entire career, is going to be without mistake. But bernie really likes to paint hillary like a picture of everything that is wrong in our system, and himself as the only voice of reason. It's very convincing, very easy to relate to if you are liberal like me. But it's not even true.

There's more in this article (go read it!) It changes nothing of my actions. I already voted for Bernie in the Louisiana primary (Clinton won), and as I already posted in here I was already planning on voting for Bernie or hillary in the final election (because the lesser of two evils is less fucking evil). But hopefully some of you bernie or busters might research more about all the candidates and vote, or not vote, based on the facts rather than gut feeling. Sometimes it's wrong.
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Postby girlapaloo » Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:13 pm

Thank you for sharing that article Charmosa. Will have to read it more in depth while I'm not at work :)
Getting ready to vote here in KY soon.
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Postby LeTronique » Mon May 02, 2016 3:56 am

A part of me wants to start a write in Bernie protest but I also know its pointless and won't change much since there are some states that don't permit it.
If I know what I know, then losing isn't learning to be lost, its learning to know when you're lost.
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Postby bigsexywzp » Mon May 02, 2016 5:46 am

I'm personally not a fan of Bernie. Yeah, I'm an evil capitalist libertarian.

That said, I loathe Drumpf. I hate everything he stands for. Pretty much the same for Cruz, albeit for different reasons. The side that I generally gravitate towards is leaning authoritarian fascism, coupled with quite a bit of nativism and racism, or authoritarian theocracy. Neither are appealing to me.

I will likely vote Libertarian, unless it's a very close race. Then? I will vote Democrat. Clinton is too hawkish and generally too inconsistent on social freedoms and civil liberties for me. Bernie, in spite of his economic views, would be acceptable. I'm capable of pragmatism. I know Congress would hamstring both of them, to prevent them from enacting too much of their agenda. Congress would, on the other hand, rubber stamp all the garbage that a Drumpf or Cruz puts out there.

She isn't someone who disrespects minorities and immigrants, who would make us a diplomatic mockery on the world stage, and who would create a trade war that we can't win. Nor is she someone who thinks that the world revolves around her personal religion, and government should be enforcing religious dictates.

Plus, there is the SCOTUS vacancy to think about.

With Drumpf's bellicosity on thinking the US can/should be able to bar immigrants based on their religion, or Cruz thinking we could spy on and target citizens for policing based on religion? What kind of lunatic would they put on the SCOTUS?
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Re: The Bernie or Bust Logic

Postby Charmosa » Sat Oct 29, 2016 12:04 am

News for any Bernie or Busters looking to vote Stein: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... other.html

Green Party presidential nominee Jill Stein has largely based her campaign on her uncompromising positions on the environment, opposition to big banks and Wall Street, defense contractors, and the pharmaceutical industry. But an analysis of her financial disclosures, which she was required to file as a presidential candidate, show she is heavily invested in the very industries that she maligns the most and as a result of her investments, she has built significant wealth.


Big carbon, financial industry, big pharma, big tobacco, defense contractors/drones. If she inherited half a million dollars and she and her husband had/have high paying jobs, why does she invest in industries she despises to make millions? Why not invest in clean energy or real estate? I know you have to make money to campaign but my bs detectors go off at this. I think Jill Stein is just a spoiler candidate and a bullshitter. What do y'all think?
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Re: The Bernie or Bust Logic

Postby NaranjaRa » Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:08 am

Charmosa wrote:News for any Bernie or Busters looking to vote Stein: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... other.html

Green Party presidential nominee Jill Stein has largely based her campaign on her uncompromising positions on the environment, opposition to big banks and Wall Street, defense contractors, and the pharmaceutical industry. But an analysis of her financial disclosures, which she was required to file as a presidential candidate, show she is heavily invested in the very industries that she maligns the most and as a result of her investments, she has built significant wealth.


Big carbon, financial industry, big pharma, big tobacco, defense contractors/drones. If she inherited half a million dollars and she and her husband had/have high paying jobs, why does she invest in industries she despises to make millions? Why not invest in clean energy or real estate? I know you have to make money to campaign but my bs detectors go off at this. I think Jill Stein is just a spoiler candidate and a bullshitter. What do y'all think?


yup. she's not as "clean" as she makes herself out to be....
was going to post the same article!
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Re: The Bernie or Bust Logic

Postby Feydakin » Sat Jan 14, 2017 4:58 pm

Been meaning to post this for a while... I am a financially conservative libertarian, if I had to label myself. What Bernie wants, what he stands for, is not only counter to what I want for America, but it would hurt me greatly as a business owner. I wrote this a while ago...

When Bernie Sanders touts the 1-3% needing to be taxed by up to 90% to help "spread the wealth" (he is on video saying this during the campaign cycle), realize that statistically he's including people that make as little as $200k per year total combined household income. That part, total combined household income is really important. That's a small business owner, who is already getting raped by taxes, regulations, etc... now they want them to give up nearly all of their earnings to provide for government coffers? They already give up over 50% of their revenue in most cases. He's always screaming bloody murder about the Koch brothers and huge conglomerates, but what he's hiding is the fact that what he wants to do will mostly negatively impact small and medium businesses. Fuck that Marxist bullshit. Close tax loopholes that allow these huge corporations to get out of paying taxes. LOWER business taxes across the board to something more reasonable, so medium and small businesses can reinvest in themselves, hire more people, etc. Deregulate and make common sense regulation so that businesses will want to not only stay in the US, but invest in US interests, hire more workers, pay better, give better benefits, etc. Create competition that raises quality and lowers costs. That is how you grow and economy, spread the wealth and make everyone prosperous... Marxism, Communism, Socialism DOES NOT WORK, even when you put "Democratic" in front of it (Socialism by it's very nature is anything but "democratic"). If these things existed in a vacuum they would implode almost immediately. The fact that capitalist countries like the US buy their products en masse is the ONLY reason they last at all.

That having been said; I do agree that oversight and regulations ARE necessary checks and balances to keep large corporations in line. I do however think though that government has greatly overstepped it's bounds in that regard for a variety of reasons that would have to be addressed, which has the net effect of hurting small and medium businesses and doing virtually nothing to stop abuses of big corporations.

I do think that social programs are very important and necessary. I do however think that a lot of what we have is broken and unsustainable as it is. I can't even imagine how terrible it would be under Socialism.
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