The Bernie or Bust Logic

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Phara
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Postby Phara » Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:18 am

I'm a Bernie or Bust girl. This is actually an incredibly heated topic and defo got some play on the NinjaVideo Facebook.

I would love to see this discussion take place.

The article I read that prompted the post:

http://www.salon.com/2016/03/16/our_nominee_is_a_disaster_time_may_be_running_out_but_democrats_will_come_to_rue_clinton_over_sanders/


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Illy_Logan
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Postby Illy_Logan » Tue Mar 22, 2016 6:02 pm

So I totally get the anger - and I'm on board with that. Sometimes you just want to burn the whole thing down and the build it up again properly (see: American Revolution). It's legit in our societal DNA. But I can't bring myself to do it - to help elect Drumpf just to give the right what they deserve - chaos. Maybe I'm just not brave enough. To me it's too risky. I have no idea how that would shake out, especially the whole re-election bit. And the whole easy Hitler comparison makes 1/4 of me shudder. I remember when people used to joke that a conversation was over when someone was compared to Hilter, like it had devolved to a ridiculous place that was no longer constructive. Nobody is saying that when they compare Drumpf to Hitler, and that's so fucked. But I digress.... I get the 2020 plan, but I dunno... ugh I just want the nominee to be Bernie so we don't have to make all of these shit decisions. It's like Mike Yard said on the Nightly Show when Larry asked him if it came down to Hilary vs. Cruz, who do you think would win? - "Nobody Larry, nobody wins in that situation."
Illy_Logan
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Postby Illy_Logan » Tue Mar 22, 2016 6:04 pm

Just spent way too much time watching Mike Yard clips to try to find it for you - alas I could not!.... and my paper is still unwritten... *dramatic hand to forehead* ;P
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Phara
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Postby Phara » Tue Mar 22, 2016 6:18 pm

Illy_Logan wrote:Just spent way too much time watching Mike Yard clips to try to find it for you - alas I could not!.... and my paper is still unwritten... *dramatic hand to forehead* ;P

hahaha. lololol hon, it gets like that here. We missed many a friggin deadline working on the boards.
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Phara
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Postby Phara » Tue Mar 22, 2016 6:21 pm

Illy_Logan wrote:So I totally get the anger - and I'm on board with that. Sometimes you just want to burn the whole thing down and the build it up again properly (see: American Revolution). It's legit in our societal DNA. But I can't bring myself to do it - to help elect Drumpf just to give the right what they deserve - chaos. Maybe I'm just not brave enough. To me it's too risky. I have no idea how that would shake out, especially the whole re-election bit. And the whole easy Hitler comparison makes 1/4 of me shudder. I remember when people used to joke that a conversation was over when someone was compared to Hilter, like it had devolved to a ridiculous place that was no longer constructive. Nobody is saying that when they compare Drumpf to Hitler, and that's so fucked. But I digress.... I get the 2020 plan, but I dunno... ugh I just want the nominee to be Bernie so we don't have to make all of these shit decisions. It's like Mike Yard said on the Nightly Show when Larry asked him if it came down to Hilary vs. Cruz, who do you think would win? - "Nobody Larry, nobody wins in that situation."



ewwww. ugh... i honestly dont know between Cruz and Hillary. I think the polls say he wins the last I heard. The thing is the Republicans come out to vote in droves while the Democrats don't and quite frankly, people will fuckin stay home if she's the candidate.

And I saw that Nightly Show bit, I totally love Mike Yard. And he said it perfectly.


Honestly... I'm doing a write-in for Bernie if he's not in it. I don't think my mind will change but who knows, as we get closer and Drumpf gets crazier.... But still, I just don't think I could vote Hillary. I hate her and all she represents.
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Postby Feydakin » Tue Mar 22, 2016 6:26 pm

I've said it before, I'll say it again; For years we've had no good options. It's been a matter of the least terrible candidate. This time though it's different. Both of the front runners would be catastrophic for the country, in scarily similar ways... I feel like Drumpf is worse, but I wouldn't vote for either of them. Seriously considering writing in Bernie. Even though my leanings run Red, I believe just as strongly in top Blue issues like the right to choose, equal rights, environmental concerns, etc. SO it's not that at all...
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Phara
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Postby Phara » Tue Mar 22, 2016 6:50 pm

Feydakin wrote:Both of the front runners would be catastrophic for the country, in scarily similar ways... ...



Honestly, couldnt agree more. The lesser of two evils? Fuck it, they're both atrocious.


Dear Lawd, please let Bernie get the nom.
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Orea
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Postby Orea » Tue Mar 22, 2016 7:09 pm

I really hope Bernie is the real deal for you guys. That would be truly amazing and definitely would change the face of the Earth. Keep in mind that whoever you place in the Oval, especially when it's a moron like Bush, that decision will impact not only the US, but the rest of the world as well. You guys have one hell of a responsibility, come to think of it.


Now with all that being said, I would strongly urge you to be wary, even of someone seemingly wonderful. Let me explain, from my own personal experience.

In 2012, for the first time in 20 years, the French people elected a left-wing President : François Hollande. Hollande comes from the French Socialist Party. He got elected because he presented a leftwing, socialist program. He mainly focused on youth, promising to undo all the evils that had been done by Sarkozy (rightwing asshole crook former President). He was all about "let's bring the Left back", etc etc.

And we fell for it, because well, he promised good things. And we wanted Change, we wanted the Left after years and years of neoliberal policies, the destruction of public services, the destruction of our rights and liberties in the face of evergrowing multinationals and police repression.

And then we got fucked. Literally, fucked in the ass, no lube. The police has never had more power, nor less restraint when it comes to using force on civilian. We got Charlie Hebdo, and then shit got crazy and politicians obviously recuperated that tragedy to further their agenda. Then we got Bataclan, and the leftwing government that we were so glad to finally have, declared a "state of urgency" (still in effect, will probably get worse after Brussels today), which they literally want to write INTO OUR CONSTITUTION. They're fucking up the justice system, giving more power to the administrative judge (working for the executive) by taking it away from the judicial judge. That "leftwing" government negotiated the Trans-Atlantic Trade treaty, which will fuck all of us up big time.

Last but not least, they're reforming our labour laws, claiming that it is by giving more rights to companies and big business that we will be able to solve unemployment. Yes, you heard that right, a "socialist" (in name only) is trying to pass a law which clearly states "everyone has fundamental rights in his/her work situation, BUT these fundamental rights can be LIMITED to ensure the well-being of the company" .

In short, the "left-wing, socialist" government we thought we elected? It's more rightwing than even the rightwing dares to be.

And why is this happening ? Because there is not one single rule, in our system, that establishes a responsibility of the elected person regarding the actual program he/she was elected on. I don't want to say something wrong about the US, but I'm pretty sure it's the same for you guys.
When you add that to the fact that banks and big money are in fact the true finances of political campaigns... What you have is anything but a democratic system.

So yeah. If Bernie is the real deal, then yippeekayeh motherfuckers. Get him there and enjoy the ride. Just make sure... beforehand. The higher you soar, the harder you fall.
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Phara
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Postby Phara » Tue Mar 22, 2016 7:25 pm

holy fuck thats an interesting take

/pending

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Illy_Logan
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Postby Illy_Logan » Thu Mar 24, 2016 11:38 am

That's a really good point Orea - we had a similar deal with Clintion Part 1 - he was elected on a string of left wing promises and then swung far to the right in pretty much all of the things. The problem for us is that for any legislation to be passed, it has to go through 2 houses and appease a slew of right wing ding bats. So legislation ends up getting changed dramatically by the time it's passed.

Honestly though, I don't know. Canada makes me a little hopeful that a left wing government can stay left wing - they just announced the budget of all spending budgets with major earmarks for the environment, indigenous peoples and extra benefits for families with young children. But this is coming on the heels of Canada's version of Bush, which they had to endure for like 12 years.

Ok I feel like I'm rambling at this point so I'm going to wrap it up and go back to bed. High fever = me brain no worky.
Orea
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Postby Orea » Fri Mar 25, 2016 1:29 am

Illy_Logan wrote:The problem for us is that for any legislation to be passed, it has to go through 2 houses and appease a slew of right wing ding bats. So legislation ends up getting changed dramatically by the time it's passed.


We have a similar system here. Congress (which assembles for things like constitutional changes) is divided between the National Assembly (elected by the people) and the Senate (great electors /mayors/region representatives). The problem is that the power is in the hand of the executive. Most because of a neat little tool written into our 1958 Constitution : the article 49-3. Basically, it allows the government to force a law through the Assemblies, and pass a bill despite popular and legislative discord. It was originally supposed to be only a last resort kind of thing, but the problem is, they've been using it on every damn law they passed over the last 10 years. Destruction of universities and schools, of workers protection, of public services in general. Every year we are in the street, except they don't care. They wait for the holidays, they pacify with false displays of compromise, and pass the bill as is when we lower our guards... Do you have something similar?
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Illy_Logan
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Postby Illy_Logan » Mon Mar 28, 2016 4:39 pm

Orea I missed that sorry!! I'm finishing up a correspondence module and I'm up to my neck in a paper - sorry for the super late reply. And the answer is yes and yes. Which I'm willing to take as definitive proof that assholes have taken over the government and they all gats ta go!!

Side note (or is this a main note?) - here's a link I posted to the facebook group that Phara asked me to post again here. It's about white privilege and not supporting Hilary.

http://qz.com/644985/privilege-is-what-allows-sanders-supporters-to-say-theyll-never-vote-for-clinton/?utm_source=atlfb
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Postby DaEllimist » Tue Mar 29, 2016 3:15 am

https://youtu.be/1dh78x0Pr1s

I'll just leave this here...
Illy_Logan
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Postby Illy_Logan » Thu Mar 31, 2016 12:32 pm

hahahahahahahahahahahah. I love it. If Bernie gets the nomination my heart may in fact explode with happiness.
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Postby BigMush » Fri Apr 01, 2016 9:44 am

**Awesome Singnature**

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DaEllimist
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Postby DaEllimist » Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:12 am

So I saw that video on Facebook and there were quite alot of negative comments (figure) about the video being clipped and "bernie supporters causing problems" .... so on the flip side, heres a Drumpf Supporter at a Bernie Rally...
https://youtu.be/YF3Ja-Mxrb4

There are quite a few negative comments, in general, from Drumpf & Hillary supporters stating that Bernie Supporters/protesters are the ones causing problems and fights, etc...to be fair from what I've seen they have been "peacefully" protesting Drumpf and his hate speech which is a First Amendment right if I remember correctly...which is ironic considering these thoughts/comments are coming from a "republican" party candidate which normally hates infringement on rights...
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Postby DaEllimist » Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:13 am

P.S. I like how you programmed the forums to spell out Drumpf every time I type T r u m p...

:]
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Postby DaEllimist » Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:40 am

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Postby Charmosa » Mon Apr 04, 2016 9:31 pm

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Bradley

http://www.thestranger.com/slog/2016/03/31/23890388/bernie-or-hillary-or-both

"People were saying the exact same thing—Sarandon said the exact same thing—in run up to the 2000 election. Bill Bradley (Google him) was the real Democrat and there was no difference between Gore and Bush and if Gore got the nomination instead of Bradley then everyone should vote for Ralph Nader or not vote at all because Gore and Bush were equally bad—and some were saying that George W. Bush was so awful—so obviously terrible—that Bush's election would surely bring the revolution. (Strangely... they didn't say the same thing about Gore, who was supposedly no different than Bush. They were exactly the same, no difference, but Gore's election would not bring the revolution.)

And like this: It's easy for white people with a lot of money to fantasize about what might happen if Donald Drumpf gets elected... because if Drumpf's election doesn't bring the revolution, if his election only visits misery on Mexicans, Muslims, African Americans, LGBT Americans, women who get abortions, etc., the wealthy and white can jet off to their homes in France and wait it out."

My two cents is I'd rather vote for Hillary than any republican and if bernie loses the primaries (unfairly or no, I know about the voter suppression and I'm outraged about it) then even a write in is likely to lose to hillary or the Republican candidate. Even if Drumpf gets elected then kicked out of office after a year or two... he could appoint a supreme court justice (or two, or three! Ruth is not going to live forever, sadly, and most of them are old)
. The dumb shit pat McCrory did in nc, more states moving us backwards in time. I just don't see hillary as bad as any republican candidate and I don't trust the rest of the country enough to stay home. I'm voting. For Bernie or hillary. It will become an idiocracy if we let it.
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Postby Rwn » Fri Apr 08, 2016 8:54 am

The reason I am pro bernie sanders is an interesting one.

The words he speaks resonates with my soul to such a degree that it is hard to put into words.

I grew up in a time when the world was amazing, the economy was (seemed) incredibly strong, the world was within my reach. I had the opportunity for anything I wanted, school, a job, a house, a family... You name it and it was a possibility. Then I turned 18, I turned 18 in 2007... Let that sink in guys. Seriously think about what I literally stepped out into the world in. The entire fucking world's economy collapsed right when I was going to join it. No longer could I even begin to imagine going to school, or even getting a damn minimum wage job, I was applying for the same jobs as people who had been in the works force for decades. Once I had a job I wasn't able to get a car. Getting a simple auto loan was impossible, getting loans for school was impossible since I had to work to afford to live and couldn't find the time for school.

My entire future was literally ripped away the second it was handed to me. And to this day I am still suffering because of the greed and corruption that runs rampant in this world.

I want bernie sanders because if he delivers what he promises no one will ever have to live through what I have, no one will ever have to choose between eating or paying the electricity bill. School will actually he a viable option. I won't have to sit back and watch as the poor get poorer and the rich piss on them and call it a handout.

I want a future that i would be happy to raise kids in. I want a future that shines, instead of this abysmal pit of darkness we have fallen into.

Please keep this in mind because it perfectly explains why I'm bernie or bust. I refuse to live in a country ran by someone so full of hate and greed (speaking of either Drumpf or Clinton). Someone who will literally tear this country apart just to line their pockets and enforce the current economic disparities. Is it so wrong that I just want the best for this world?
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white_hotel
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Postby white_hotel » Fri Apr 08, 2016 10:02 pm

I was invested in party politics for far longer than most other anarchocommunists I know, probably because for a long time I worked directly with marginalised people for whom the scant differences between the British political parties were life and death. But hard left candidates tend to come along at times of enormous disillusion with the political system, and these days I tend to see them as a way of recuperating public faith in representative politics, a way for ruling class institutions to avoid more direct democratic forms which a disillusioned working class might otherwise demand. The socialist parties in France and Greece have been harassed out of power at the international level, and they had far more support than Bernie has right now. I'd love to see him win, but not as much as I'd love to see Amazon workers strike and seize control of the giant warehouses that exploit and abuse them.
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Postby Shumaza » Mon Apr 11, 2016 2:47 pm

Voting for clinton will do nothing but perpetuate the same tired ass establishment fuckethon we have had for the past fifty years. I won't fucking do it... If the people won't get off their asses and fight for a real god damn change then cruz or drumph are what we as a nation fucking deserve.
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Postby girlapaloo » Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:15 pm

For the first time in my life, I registered to vote this year.
I don't even know why, because as with every other election I have ever lived through, I do not feel strongly that any one of the candidates will bring about good for the USofA. I'm only spending time reading these debates to try and decide for myself what the hell I am going to do.
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Zansi'Vara
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Postby Zansi'Vara » Mon Apr 11, 2016 11:29 pm

Last election cycle, I voted for Gary Johnson, a Libertarian, because I really liked his positions and how he had handled his time in elected office so far in his life. For the same reason, I am this cycle voting for Bernie Sanders, a Democratic Socialist. I see a lot of people online and in-person squabbling over political terminology, but really that's never even been a factor for me. All I care about is what the candidate plans to do, how they plan to do it, and having a history that demonstrates they are capable of enacting their plans. I don't even agree with everything Bernie Sanders says, but that doesn't matter to me, because in general I DO agree with his plans, and I see him as someone who knows what he plans to do, how he plans to do it, and has a history demonstrating he can. For me, that's all it boils down to.
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Shumaza
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Postby Shumaza » Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:49 am

In all reality zans, he really isn't a democratic socialist. He's really just the poster child for a true liberal capitalist. The thing is just that the left has moved so far away from their progressive roots of the 40's that he seems radical. If he were an actual democratic socialist he'd want to get rid of the over all capitalist economy and replace it with state controlled production, which he's not in the slightest.
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