32-year-old man shot by police while producing license/reg in Minnesota; live streamed to Facebook

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32-year-old man shot by police while producing license/reg in Minnesota; live streamed to Facebook

Postby cerrodepedro » Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:17 am

This may have been posted, in which case I'll trust the over-worked moderators to jump on it, but I'd rather risk posting here than leave the story unattended:

http://www.startribune.com/aftermath-of-officer-involved-shooting-captured-on-phone-video/385789251/#1

Last night, in a suburb outside of St. Paul, Minnesota, a law enforcement officer shot a man, Philando Castile, as he reached for his wallet to retrieve his driver's license in compliance with instructions he gave him. He informed the officer that he was licensed to carry a firearm. The news itself carries especial timeliness given the outrage over the point blank shooting Alton Sterling, as both men are black, both were in no position to defend themselves, let alone produce a threat meriting their own respective executions, and both events were recorded and published to social media.
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Re: 32-year-old man shot by police while producing license/reg in Minnesota; live streamed to Facebook

Postby ink » Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:27 pm

im so heartbroken right now yo.. serious, these tears are like waterworks. like even my cat is on my lap trying to console me, even she feels it.
aaaaaaaaah man, i have to gather myself up right now, compose myself to go out into this world, same as yesterday and face those whose countenance reflects fear... just like everyday. idk man.. how many have to die for society in this country to wake up and exercise some understanding that the US is not and has never been a place of equity for black men..? so many are asleep because they have not love. we blind ourselves when we do not walk in love but fear.
i am so overwhelmed with emotion right now. literally, that man was alive (barely) at the start of the video, and soon after, his spirit left him. my heart is so heavy right now for that woman and her daughter. :(
we are, what we allow to occupy us..





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Re: 32-year-old man shot by police while producing license/reg in Minnesota; live streamed to Facebook

Postby Feydakin » Thu Jul 07, 2016 1:46 pm

Anyone that goes to look at this, and wants to see the original video on Youtube, it is graphic. A man slumps over and dies right next to the woman filming, on camera. I've seen death before, more than my fair share, and this is tough to watch. :(

Not even sure how to approach this... considering that it's after the fact and there's no way for us to really know what happened aside from the word of the woman filming it, we shouldn't be pointing fingers right now... at anyone. I can tell you right now that with the current climate, you probably shouldn't reach for anything right after you tell a police officer you have a license to carry, even if that is what actually happened it's not the best choice to make there.
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Re: 32-year-old man shot by police while producing license/reg in Minnesota; live streamed to Facebook

Postby Candeeoke » Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:44 pm

This is just so appalling, not surprising unfortunately. I'm so happy that Lavish was able to be calm and go live. Her phone could've been taken and the video destroyed had she just recorded it. I cannot imagine how I would've reacted in the same situation.

Feyd, in TX not having your license is illegal as well. In concealed carry class here they tell you that you should identify yourself and wait - but that's ideal and since I'm not black I can't imagine what he must've been thinking. He had a gun and he wanted to show that he had it legally is what I think. He said he had it - he could've not said anything and shot the cop if that's what he wanted. Cops in the US only know escalation. For white people they escalate 10 times and for people of color it's infinite. Our police should be taught to de-escalate.

He didn't deserve to die. No matter what.

Same for people that are resisting arrest - it is human nature to fight when someone is trying to subdue you. Some people can go limp but that's not everyone. Once again cops should de-escalate from the get go.

There's such a thing as being too smart to be a police officer. http://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barr ... y?id=95836 That is crazy and clearly dangerous. They have no critical thinking skills, that's dangerous. And actually it isn't even dangerous to be a police officer anymore. It's safer now than ever. They REALLY should be trained to de-escalate.

http://time.com/4326676/dangerous-jobs-america/ Cops are number 15 - it's supposed to be dangerous - they know that when they sign up. That doesn't mean they should be able to kill someone.
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Re: 32-year-old man shot by police while producing license/reg in Minnesota; live streamed to Facebook

Postby LeTronique » Fri Jul 08, 2016 2:25 am

What fucks me up every time is when she realizes that her husband isn't breathing and she slowly loses it, while that moron of a cop starts yelling that Phil was in the wrong.

America's pride is getting us nowhere. The rest of the west touts police forces with humanity centric training. These are states where there are actually bad apples.
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Re: 32-year-old man shot by police while producing license/reg in Minnesota; live streamed to Facebook

Postby cerrodepedro » Fri Jul 08, 2016 4:04 pm

I'd also like to note that a child was in the fucking car. You're willing to shoot into a vehicle where there's a child because you're scared of black dudes (or maybe it was just general fear, though per capita it is so important to know that at least in the USA, you're far more likely to die in police interactions if you're a person of color, especially a black man), far as I'm concerned, you have no place in civil society.
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Re: 32-year-old man shot by police while producing license/reg in Minnesota; live streamed to Facebook

Postby Candeeoke » Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:27 pm

[7/9/16, 6:19:17 PM] Candee : This comment I found explains why black people are twice as likely to be killed - which is the premise that aaron was talking about

John_Coltrane funthea Jul 9, 2016 7:02 PM
Odds of being killed given you're black: 24.2/13.2 ~2

Odds of being killed given you're white: 47/63 < 1

Odds that math isn't your strong suit: >100

Stats show you are twice as likely to killed by cops if you're black

However, one must consider what fraction of all crimes are committed by blacks. Its 28% by blacks for all crimes (source: FBI)

So, odds if you're black that you will commit a crime: 28/13.2 >2. So, they're killed at a slightly lessor rate than they commit crimes.

Conclusion: There's a reason for racial profiling and also for the higher odds of violent cop/black activity. And a good reason to avoid black citiies (even if you're black)

So, you're correct that discrimination isn't likely to be much of a factor but your reasoning is flawed.
[7/9/16, 6:21:06 PM] Candee : from this site: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-07-0 ... -cops-2016
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Re: 32-year-old man shot by police while producing license/reg in Minnesota; live streamed to Facebook

Postby cerrodepedro » Sun Jul 10, 2016 8:47 pm

Unless there is a far more rigorous effort to tie crime stats to law enforcement use of deadly force, I can't accept the premise that correlation indicates a causal relationship. It certainly is not a new argument, but no one has yet been able to prove that it holds any merit. In less tactful words, the "if they would behave, they would have less interaction with law enforcement to deal with" argument is consistent with a narrative that paints groups of people (including races) as inherently prone to crime and/or violence (as the two do not always intersect). Crime stats can be affected by a number of factors:

Critical thinking calls into question any given conclusion, even if the conclusion supports an anti-oppression narrative. I completely understand that. It's all about transparency and intellectual honesty and overall integrity. It's not even Devil's Advocacy for Devil's Advocacy's sake (and there is a huge difference). Makes sense. It's just that when the conclusion is replaced with assumptions that aren't backed by empirical evidence, it stops being analytical.

Personally I'm trying to avoid behaving in a manner that I've allowed Facebook and other social media to convince me to behave, needlessly strident, disrespectful of the truth, and behaving in a manner inconsistent with how I would behave around people in person. I hope this is detected as I get a bit scathing in our conversations about race and Candee I hope you know I am aware of the fact that I'm engaging with royalty.
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Re: 32-year-old man shot by police while producing license/reg in Minnesota; live streamed to Facebook

Postby PhlawlessPhelon » Mon Jul 11, 2016 12:55 am

John_Coltrane funthea Jul 9, 2016 7:02 PM
Odds of being killed given you're black: 24.2/13.2 ~2
Odds of being killed given you're white: 47/63 < 1
Odds that math isn't your strong suit: >100
Stats show you are twice as likely to killed by cops if you're black
However, one must consider what fraction of all crimes are committed by blacks. Its 28% by blacks for all crimes (source: FBI)
So, odds if you're black that you will commit a crime: 28/13.2 >2. So, they're killed at a slightly lessor rate than they commit crimes.
Conclusion: There's a reason for racial profiling and also for the higher odds of violent cop/black activity. And a good reason to avoid black citiies (even if you're black)

This is a simple bi-variate analysis, so it is not controlling for the many other factors that could influence the decision to shoot. I.E. this is how social scientists analyzed phenomena prior to the increased use of regression analysis, Structural equation modeling, latent growth curve analysis, and other multivariate techniques of data analysis. Below is a basic concept map of all the variables that would need to be controlled for to come up with a concrete conclusion (At the very least, an attempt would need to be made to control for as many of these variables as possible, and anything beyond the quoted comparison of rates (which doesn't offer significance statistics, so the relationship could be spurious).

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While violent crime may (or may not) be influencing police decision-making, you'd likely be surprised by how little of a role it actually plays in most situations. For instance, city/county/state/national level crime rates (which is the data cited by the quoted source) typically have very little impact on police decision-making. Think critically, and it begins to make sense that if crime rates play a role, then it would be neighborhood level crime rates that would most influence an officer's decision-making calculus.

My biggest complaint with the discussions I am seeing all over the internet is that people think the answer is as simplistic as "race" or "crime rates." To me, this is indicative of a complete lack of critical thinking. Look at the chart and you will see that it includes many of the issues I have seen mentioned by others in recent posts. For instance, one ninja mentioned knowledge of the suspect's criminal history (suspected-related situational characteristics), Candee highlighted crime rates by sharing the quote from an internet source (community characteristics/violence), cerrodepedro noted income disparity (community characteristics/demographics) the war on drugs (law/judicial interventions), racial bias (officer-related situational characteristics...also police subculture/internal working environment). All of these could explain some of the variance in police decisions to shoot.

Again, shameless plug for the new "Police Use of Deadly Force/Police Behavior" section in Social Science Peer Reviewed Journal Articles Resource thread. In a few weeks I should also be able to add a section about research that examines shootings of police (rather than by police).
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Re: 32-year-old man shot by police while producing license/reg in Minnesota; live streamed to Facebook

Postby Corgimom » Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:16 am

Given the racial gap in arrests and convictions I have to wonder
Part a} What percentage of people killed by police are convicted felons
Part b] What percentage of police killed convicted felons are black
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Re: 32-year-old man shot by police while producing license/reg in Minnesota; live streamed to Facebook

Postby Candeeoke » Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:20 am

cerrodepedro wrote:Personally I'm trying to avoid behaving in a manner that I've allowed Facebook and other social media to convince me to behave, needlessly strident, disrespectful of the truth, and behaving in a manner inconsistent with how I would behave around people in person. I hope this is detected as I get a bit scathing in our conversations about race and Candee I hope you know I am aware of the fact that I'm engaging with royalty.



Awwww - I barely consider myself royalty LOL I've found all you've said just fine! I only posted that quote because the raw numbers do not seem to show that blacks are twice as likely to be killed. It's not like most people learn statistics or even critical thinking from the education that most of us receive. Critical thinking is required of these situations. Of course it is easy to "simplify" the numbers and make conclusions. I'm not sure that we could ever figure out why things happen but for some people to think that racism is not an issue is just crazy. I school people on white privilege all.the.time. Poverty is obviously a huge factor and the fact that so many blacks are poor does stem from slavery.

I honestly hope that once all the people that were around during segregation are dead we can move past things more. Clearly we aren't there yet.

There's a saying that my Dad taught me and I've heard from more than just him - that's don't pull a gun unless you intend on using it. I'd like to think that's not taught in law enforcement but it does make me wonder...
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Re: 32-year-old man shot by police while producing license/reg in Minnesota; live streamed to Facebook

Postby PhlawlessPhelon » Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:48 am

It's not like most people learn statistics or even critical thinking from the education that most of us receive


Unfortunate but true.

Given the racial gap in arrests and convictions I have to wonder
Part a} What percentage of people killed by police are convicted felons
Part b] What percentage of police killed convicted felons are black


I'm too tired to go look up these statistics. Though, there used to be fleeing felon policies that allowed cops to shoot "fleeing felons" even if they were shot in the back and regardless of if they were armed. When these policies were challenged in courts and deemed illegal (Tennessee v. Garner)...the amount of felons shot by police dropped dramatically---However, the amount of "accidental shootings" increased the same time shootings of felons dropped....Coincidence? makes you wonder...

The Influence of the" Garner" Decision on Police Use of Deadly Force p. 256-257
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Re: 32-year-old man shot by police while producing license/reg in Minnesota; live streamed to Facebook

Postby Rivoc » Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:21 am

This is sad, awful, appalling. Its even more disturbing that theres a chunk of society cant or wont admit there is a problem here. What right did they have to take the girl away in handcuffs too? they couldnt call a fmaily member to get her? she didnt do anything wrong.... theres so much wrong with this....
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Re: 32-year-old man shot by police while producing license/reg in Minnesota; live streamed to Facebook

Postby Corgimom » Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:10 am

Given the racial gap in arrests and convictions I have to wonder
Part a} What percentage of people killed by police are convicted felons
Part b] What percentage of police killed convicted felons are black


I'm too tired to go look up these statistics. Though, there used to be fleeing felon policies that allowed cops to shoot "fleeing felons" even if they were shot in the back and regardless of if they were armed. When these policies were challenged in courts and deemed illegal (Tennessee v. Garner)...the amount of felons shot by police dropped dramatically---However, the amount of "accidental shootings" increased the same time shootings of felons dropped....Coincidence? makes you wonder...

The Influence of the" Garner" Decision on Police Use of Deadly Force p. 256-257[/quote]

I postulate that the largest group killed by police are convicted felons, maybe even felons with histories of violence and/or gun use. Given the racial disparity evidenced in the justice system we might have more of a 'big picture' explanation than simple racism from police officers

This occurred to me after I noticed press articles giving the criminal history or the slain.

The closed loop failure of the judicla system has to be part of the big picture.
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