The Dallas Shooting and The Overlap of American Social Issues

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The Dallas Shooting and The Overlap of American Social Issues

Postby LeTronique » Fri Jul 08, 2016 4:17 pm

As I'm sure you all know, there was a spate of shootings in and around the area where BLM and pretty much a bunch of angry citizens gathered to protest the murders of Alton Sterling and Philando Castile.

As the story began to break last night, we found an uproar of racists accusing African Americans and BLM for the shootings.

As day broke, we all realized that the attacks were extremely well coordinated. There is even video of the attacker utilizing distracting fire to confuse, flank and kill a police officer. As it turns out, the shooter was an ex-Army official who was mentally unstable. He apparently hated BLM, hated Caucasians and hated police officers.

Now we see a common issue with America.


The overlapping of social issues and its leading to a very violent outcome.

Have you any thoughts on this topic, Ninjas?
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Re: The Dallas Shooting and The Overlap of American Social Issues

Postby cerrodepedro » Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:46 pm

Just posted this and damn, the reasoning and analytical thinking are rigorous.
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Re: The Dallas Shooting and The Overlap of American Social Issues

Postby Feydakin » Fri Jul 08, 2016 6:46 pm

Here is my news thread about the Dallas shootings for the uninformed...

viewtopic.php?f=425&t=1658

Just going to post these to add some viewpoints to the conversation...

Shoot or don't shoot:
https://www.facebook.com/DailyPolicePho ... 404743508/

The question I find myself asking whenever I see things like this is, "Why go for the lethal option right from the beginning?" I get it, when you feel threatened and are in an unknown situation it's hard to keep it together and think rationally. And sometimes it's completely reasonable to go to that option. However I've always wondered why I don't see more police de-escalate situations? Probably because we only see videos released widely that show the worse case scenario... that's at least part of it. But there have been plenty of videos I've seen over the years where the police clearly went directly to the nuclear option and made things worse. I still think situations and police like that are in the minority. The fact and statistics bear that out.

Now let's see what the much vilified Steven Crowder had to say, literally the day before the Dallas shootings... Now while I fully agree this guy is a total douchebag, he's also not nearly always wrong, and tends to use rational, logical arguments, facts and statistics to back up the things he says. I'm absolutely positive a lot of people find him offensive, but unless you love living in an echo chamber you listen to reason no matter what voice utters it.



As with everything I post like this, I don't necessarily agree with any or all of what is said, but I like seeing things at every angle. Might have more to say later...
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Re: The Dallas Shooting and The Overlap of American Social Issues

Postby cerrodepedro » Fri Jul 08, 2016 7:52 pm

So that Facebook page? I'm seeing "it's not about color" and memes about how compliance results in your life being spared. FUCK THAT SHIT.
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Re: The Dallas Shooting and The Overlap of American Social Issues

Postby Feydakin » Fri Jul 08, 2016 8:20 pm

Since I sincerely doubt anyone is going to bother looking up the sources, I will direct link them. Count these up, I did... at the very least this sheds doubt on the proclamation that there is some disparity on the number of police shootings of blacks over other races.
http://killedbypolice.net/

If you want something to cross reference, here you go:
http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/offic ... -shootings

Another reference, from the FBI:
https://leb.fbi.gov/search?SearchableTe ... +Shootings

The Washington Post also sort of keeps track of officer involved shootings:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics ... ings-2016/

Also a snippet which is a fair representation of pretty much every year that I looked at in the last 10 years of the Department of Justice statistic report on race on race violent crime;
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Re: The Dallas Shooting and The Overlap of American Social Issues

Postby PhlawlessPhelon » Sun Jul 10, 2016 3:37 am

at the very least this sheds doubt on the proclamation that there is some disparity on the number of police shootings of blacks over other races.


What doubt? the numbers are pretty concrete....The causes for the disparity is a different debate entirely, but there is a disparity. The Washington Post link you shared clearly shows the racial disparity.

The FBI link you shared has no data concerning the numbers (because there is no official national database on this topic, we mainly rely on news organizations for these numbers because not every jurisdiction collects this data, and they are not required to turn it over to the FBI even if they do collect it).

Shameless plug for the new "Police Use of Deadly Force/Police Behavior" category created in the peer-review thread: Social Science Peer Reviewed Journal Articles Resource
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Re: The Dallas Shooting and The Overlap of American Social Issues

Postby Feydakin » Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:08 pm

The National Bureau of Economic Research (NBER) just released a study showing “no racial differences” in officer-involved shootings (OIS).

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government ... shootings/

http://www.nber.org/papers/w22399.pdf
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Re: The Dallas Shooting and The Overlap of American Social Issues

Postby ink » Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:27 pm

/sigh
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Re: The Dallas Shooting and The Overlap of American Social Issues

Postby Feydakin » Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:59 pm

ink wrote:/sigh


I know, but it would be an echo chamber if I just followed the populace narrative... living in an echo chamber is dangerous.
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Re: The Dallas Shooting and The Overlap of American Social Issues

Postby Feydakin » Wed Jul 13, 2016 4:06 pm

I wonder how many people feel like this on both sides of the issue and just aren't saying so in public?

https://www.facebook.com/kalynjames/vid ... 813124126/
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Re: The Dallas Shooting and The Overlap of American Social Issues

Postby Psy » Wed Jul 13, 2016 5:13 pm

The reason why you don't hear anything about de-escalation is that it's not a catchy headline. Yet Nevada focused on disarmament and de-escalation and their shootings have dropped by 37%
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Re: The Dallas Shooting and The Overlap of American Social Issues

Postby ink » Wed Jul 13, 2016 5:26 pm

we are, what we allow to occupy us..





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Re: The Dallas Shooting and The Overlap of American Social Issues

Postby PhlawlessPhelon » Wed Jul 13, 2016 6:06 pm

Feydakin wrote:I wonder how many people feel like this on both sides of the issue and just aren't saying so in public?

https://www.facebook.com/kalynjames/vid%20...%20813124126/


I think you hit on something.

To me, too many people (in the country/media, not ninja) are acting like there are easy answers (lower crime rates or get tough on crime, train officers better, prosecute more officers, etc.). Yet, these ignore the real issues:

1. The NRA and police unions routinely lobby against any effort to formally collect data on police involved shootings. Therefore, data must be provided by the media and this comes with its own set of problems.

2. There is no simple solution. For instance, even if we can see a total decrease in police use of deadly force, will we see a decrease in the racially disparate rates of deadly force? A total decrease is good, but if black males remain 2-5 times more likely to be shot, then we technically still have a problem. I reiterate the importance of data collection because every state that began formally collecting traffic stop data saw incremental decreases in the racially disparate rates of stops and searches (i.e. racial profiling immediately began to become less common---statistically speaking. The issue of racial profiling was not resolved, but we improved circumstances simply because cops knew they had statisticians studying and paying attention to the official numbers).

3. The War on Drugs is a huge problem. Solutions are out there, they just aren't popular with politicians (for instance, the GOP recently chose to not include medical marijuana as part of their party platform HuffPost Article about GOP platform and medical marijuana). The War on Drugs impacts the criminal justice system (and thus, police) in so many ways that people commonly overlook. For instance, if police suddenly didn't need to police drug use, then local and federal resources could be used to clamp down on violence (and if big time drug dealers are brought down in the process, then its a win-win for the police).

4. Those opposed to racial profiling and the excessive use of deadly force should ponder becoming police. Like the Dallas chief said, the DPD is hiring. Other issues thought to be factors at the macro and micro level can be influenced by individuals that become academics, run for public office, become lawyers, social workers, support local youth shelters (or Boys & Girls clubs), etc. In essence, we need to become involved in our local communities acting from a place of love, rather than responding with hate or malice.
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Re: The Dallas Shooting and The Overlap of American Social Issues

Postby ink » Wed Jul 13, 2016 6:38 pm

what if............ (i like to ponder the what if's alot)

but what if #4 with a twist..?

policing local communities from within..
-require police/private security/whatever.. to join these communities, impoverished or not.
make them live in the communities they police. raise your kids there, go home to your wife around the corner, maintain a presence where they actually live... i bet this would seriously change the game up. if pookey the block heroin junkie came to the door to borrow some sugar, from mr. officer, dollars to donuts, the perception would be all the way different.
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Re: The Dallas Shooting and The Overlap of American Social Issues

Postby ink » Wed Jul 13, 2016 6:41 pm

and no, i dont believe there is an easy fix... but the fixing cannot begin until we acknowledge that there is an actual problem, and im not just talking about the racial tension. what i continue to point towards is deeply systematic
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Re: The Dallas Shooting and The Overlap of American Social Issues

Postby Feydakin » Wed Jul 13, 2016 9:28 pm

That's the way it is with literally everything... people think that there are simple answers, and theirs is the only right one, so they scream it, and scream it and scream it and won't hear anything else. The reality is that these are hugely complex issues that have no silver bullet solution. When something is systematically broken, that means that many aspects for the system, top down, need to be looked at and fixed.
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Re: The Dallas Shooting and The Overlap of American Social Issues

Postby PhlawlessPhelon » Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:17 pm

Feydakin wrote:That's the way it is with literally everything... people think that there are simple answers, and theirs is the only right one, so they scream it, and scream it and scream it and won't hear anything else. The reality is that these are hugely complex issues that have no silver bullet solution. When something is systematically broken, that means that many aspects for the system, top down, need to be looked at and fixed.


Well said! /tup

Ink wrote:policing local communities from within..
-require police/private security/whatever.. to join these communities, impoverished or not.
make them live in the communities they police. raise your kids there, go home to your wife around the corner, maintain a presence where they actually live... i bet this would seriously change the game up. if pookey the block heroin junkie came to the door to borrow some sugar, from mr. officer, dollars to donuts, the perception would be all the way different.


I've heard this mentioned before and I can see the appeal of the strategy. The first step would be to try it in 3 cities with disproportionate shooting numbers and evaluate the results. Doing so would allow for quasi-experimental research designs and very informative results. Realistically, good luck getting officers with established families to agree to live in a troubled neighborhood. This then restricts us to hardened single cops or rookies eager to "fight crime" and that crime fighter mentality is already listed by many academics as one of the problems with policing. Its well known that very little police work satisfies the perceived role of being a "crime fighter" (lots of police work is writing reports, patrolling, tickets, and calls to service involving domestic disputes). That all being said, I think a pitch could be made to try it for a few years in a few select cities and then evaluate the results to see if its a strategy worth expanding.

My opinion is focus on the violence, instead of broken windows policing. Hold bad police accountable (including limiting the influence of police unions), and in turn, we should slowly see an increase in public trust of police. Then, as public trust increases, self-efficacy (or informal social control within neighborhoods) should also increase. I feel like most departments (especially urban departments) are going out of their way to improve their public image and accountability. However, police unions muddy the waters by funneling tons of money into protecting dirty cops and lobbying against good laws, and lobbying for bad laws. For instance, police unions nationwide openly lobby against any form of data collection desired by criminologists (i.e. traffic stop data, gun data, police involved shooting data). My question is WHY? What is the point in lobbying against easy to collect data, that can easily remain confidential to researchers outside of the department, and will aid in the improvement of police-community relations? It makes no sense to me.

Edit: of course my proposed strategy would also include widespread De-escalation training and other similar strategies that emphasize the avoidance of taking lives unless your own life is in imminent danger. Therefore, I think widespread use of body-cams are a good idea (and when they are not turned on or video is unavailable this should be seen as, at least, sketchy). Likewise, I think cops deserve greater pay and routine shift changes (so you don't have a cop always working the same beat at night. Give him some daytime hours from time to time, etc. Reduce police stress and compensate them better is what I'm saying). In sum, the Dallas chief is right, for too many years we have called on police to handle too many of society's social problems that should have nothing to do with the police (drug use, truant kids, failing schools, mental illness, etc.)
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Re: The Dallas Shooting and The Overlap of American Social Issues

Postby PhlawlessPhelon » Thu Jul 14, 2016 12:45 am

Also, Feyd, that link to the FB person (She is actually a former Miss Alabama). She was on FoxNews today getting grilled by a super biased Sean Hannity. She actually lost her job at PBS because of that post. Just throwing that out there.
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Re: The Dallas Shooting and The Overlap of American Social Issues

Postby Feydakin » Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:24 am

PhlawlessPhelon wrote:Also, Feyd, that link to the FB person (She is actually a former Miss Alabama). She was on FoxNews today getting grilled by a super biased Sean Hannity. She actually lost her job at PBS because of that post. Just throwing that out there.


I know, I read all the news articles about it and watched the "interview" with Hannity on Fox... /taco
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Re: The Dallas Shooting and The Overlap of American Social Issues

Postby PhlawlessPhelon » Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:26 am

Man, that sucks she lost her job, but that's why you have to be careful about posting videos on FB I guess.
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Re: The Dallas Shooting and The Overlap of American Social Issues

Postby PhlawlessPhelon » Sun Aug 14, 2016 7:11 am

Feydakin wrote:The National Bureau of Economic Research (NBER) just released a study showing “no racial differences” in officer-involved shootings (OIS).


I wouldn't put much weight on this paper. All he really supports with this paper is that Houston shootings show "no racial differences" (even that can be contested after examining the limitations of the study). In general this is a good example of the type of research that COULD be done if police unions didn't fight tooth and nail using lobbyists trying to prevent data collection. This is a good start that took a lot of effort to collect the data. Also, he had help from some pretty influential people, so this paper deserves respect, but it doesn't surprise me that conservative media outlets (Breitbart) are trying to give it more weight than it deserves.

Critique of this study (my 15 minute analysis, by no means a comprehensive critique)

    Firstly, this paper is not peer-reviewed. In fact, it was not even reviewed by "the NBER Board of Directors that accompanies official NBER publications"

    Second, economists are notorious for thinking they can control for "everything." Plus, their papers tend to lack true theoretical backing. I could go on for days about economists trying to do criminological research, but I wont bore you. That being said, they controlled for some shit that most criminologists would not consider to be theoretically important. Thus, he could have trivialized his findings (data mining).

    The primary analysis only examined one city, Houston. In fact, the author notes this as a significant weakness when he states "This is likely not a representative set of cities."

    They used suspect weapons as a variable, but did not analyze a sub-sample of just unarmed individuals (This is huge and likely the most interesting research question worth answering!).

    Didn't control for neighborhood characteristics.

    Didn't control for organizational policies or training.

    He runs another test with a different dependent variable (officer attacked first vs. suspect shot first) but changed the sample (he explains that he changed the sample, but doesn't explain WHY....things that make you go hmmmmmm)

    He also notes that his data does not contain true zeros, this is important for a statistical analysis such as this (use of force justified, but not used).

    His own statement of limitations with the data (my emphasis added with italics/bold/underline):

    "Taken alone, officer-involved shootings are the most extreme and least used form of police force and thus, in isolation, may be misleading. Second, the penalties for wrongfully discharging a lethal weapon in any given situation can be life altering, thus, the incentive to misrepresent contextual factors on police reports may be large. Third, we don't typically have the suspect's side of the story and often there are no witnesses. Fourth, it is impossible to capture all variables of importance at the time of a shooting. Thus, what appears to be discrimination to some may look like mis-measured contextual factors to others."
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Re: The Dallas Shooting and The Overlap of American Social Issues

Postby Itsa notame » Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:27 pm

the media plays a big part in sensationalizing a lot of things that happen daily to all races by focusing on one and pushing tensions to their breaking point. You would think in an age where information is readily available people would be able to sift through and find a common ground somewhere and yet it seems to divide more and more. These things have been happening forever yet we didn't have the capability to know what happened on the other side of the world at the push of a button. Now I don't believe shooting a bunch of people is the medias fault but they do seem to want to incite instead of quell problems in the country. Ratings are where they get their cash after all and violence sells while invoking extreme emotional responses from a majority of people. Officers have a shit job and in America a very dangerous one. They are in extreme situations daily and yet the majority don't kill people. There are just to many factors involved for an easy fix to violence and social injustices. I suppose once everything is automated and no one has to do shit we will all be on equal footing. Wall-E

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