3rd Party Voting

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NaranjaRa
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Re: Johnson/Weld Spinoff Thread

Postby NaranjaRa » Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:32 pm

btw i'm one of the asshats that voted Nader way back when, and we all know how Bush ended up winning (stealing), and how research shows votes for Nader basically cost Gore the election that year. so until there's a real chance of a 3rd party winning, never again for me.

maybe we rename this thread the 3rd party spinoff? ;-)
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Re: Johnson/Weld Spinoff Thread

Postby AliceElite » Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:09 pm

I heard that research had heavily debunked that myth, actually - that nader cost gore the election. links?
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Re: Johnson/Weld Spinoff Thread

Postby AliceElite » Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:15 pm

calling Stein the alt-right is hilarious.

I don't think saying that a clinton presidency is more dangerous than a Drumpf one is that far fetched TBH - I'm pretty heavily in the 'if Drumpf wins we're closer to destroying the country and creating a socialist utopia' though, so i mean accelerationists are A-OK in my book.

Also, Clinton is a lot more EFFECTIVE than Drumpf would be - they could have exactly the same policies and Clinton would still be more dangerous. Because she is both seen as a 'progressive' and has a lot of experience playing the game, I honestly think she's a much bigger risk than Drumpf. Drumpf is obviously a shitbag, but better the devil you know than the one who can do basically whatever she wants through back channels.
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Re: Johnson/Weld Spinoff Thread

Postby AliceElite » Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:16 pm

They haven't been falling fast, did you even look a the 538 link?
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Re: Johnson/Weld Spinoff Thread

Postby NaranjaRa » Wed Nov 02, 2016 12:04 am

AliceElite wrote:I heard that research had heavily debunked that myth, actually - that nader cost gore the election. links?


http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articl ... 30715.html

it brings up the old Disinfo article that folks still always seem to cite when saying that it's a myth as well...

AliceElite wrote:They haven't been falling fast, did you even look a the 538 link?


i look at that site every other day, actually. after the 3rd debate she was at around 85%, but has steadily been falling since. leads in states where she looked like a clear winner are now within the margin of error. and with the shady hacking shit from Russia i'm not throwing in the towel just yet. we still have a week to go and the timing of the FBI email crap that was know since August is now having an effect.

AliceElite wrote:calling Stein the alt-right is hilarious.

I don't think saying that a clinton presidency is more dangerous than a Drumpf one is that far fetched TBH - I'm pretty heavily in the 'if Drumpf wins we're closer to destroying the country and creating a socialist utopia' though, so i mean accelerationists are A-OK in my book.

Also, Clinton is a lot more EFFECTIVE than Drumpf would be - they could have exactly the same policies and Clinton would still be more dangerous. Because she is both seen as a 'progressive' and has a lot of experience playing the game, I honestly think she's a much bigger risk than Drumpf. Drumpf is obviously a shitbag, but better the devil you know than the one who can do basically whatever she wants through back channels.


wow. i don't know what to say to that. Drumpf is by no means the devil we know, and in large that's because we don't know what is going on behind him in regards to Russia and his finances. who he is tied to money-wise? why is he always seeming to defend Putin? there are suggestions of blackmail. have you dug into this stuff about Russia at all? we don't *really* know his positions because he does and says whatever gets him applause and attention. remember he used to be a Dem and was once quite fond of the Clintons?

again, i don't love Hillary. never have. i grew up during Bill's presidency. i remember it all. but i took a long hard look at myself in regards to what i thought about her and realized that a lot of it literally came from perceptions gleaned over the years from all the bashings she has taken, all the disinfo spread through the media, all the hate from the other side of the isle that is so often not at all based in reality. i heavily considered the things she actually has accomplished in her years that are good. i tried to separate how i *felt* about her as a person from the facts of what she has and has not done that can be considered shady. and like John Oliver pointed out in his piece, yes, a lot of it IS shady, but there isn't much *actual* information - real hard evidence - that proves there is something more nefarious going on. if i'm wrong, please share links? because i want to know...

but really...voting to destroy the country? that's ok?? you want to potentially lose the help and services that you currently depend on - that your family depends on? goodbye healthcare for me, for sure. that alone is so ultimately frightening.

i doubt that this nation - with the people in it who propped Drumpf up - will ever become a socialist utopia. if this place goes down, sorry, but socialism is not going to replace it all. corporations will, as they just about have already. it will just be the last nail in the coffin. because duh, Drumpf is all about the 1%.
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Re: Johnson/Weld Spinoff Thread

Postby NaranjaRa » Wed Nov 02, 2016 12:29 am

AliceElite wrote:So the green party is the anticapitalist party that is going to be on most ballots.

Also, to clarify, Stein has investments in funds and portfolios that take her money AND THEN INVEST it in places she has really no control over. Are there ANY mutual funds that FOR SURE don't invest money into big pharma or big oil? Serious question. http://time.com/money/3423142/divestmen ... investing/ Most people don't actually choose where their money goes. And to be fair, if she kept that money in anything other than a local credit union, she would be investing in fossil fuels. That's what banks do.

I don't blame her for playing the hand she was dealt - just like, even though I'm a socialist, I still plan on starting my own business.
....
Also, all our faves are problematic - Stein still hasn't given me a satisfactory answer on some of the stuff she said several years ago regarding trans folks, and she still hasn't clarified her "autism is a public health epidemic" comment, but honestly if that is the worst that she's got I'm okay with that.

I would like to point out that Stein actually went to standing rock and has actively worked against the fossil fuel industry, Clinton put out a statement that was deliberately vague and very clearly showed that she thinks that the oil companies matter more than the treaties, Drumpf literally could not care any less, and Johnson would like to deregulate everything resulting in more oil spills, but, you know Jill Stein DID put money in mutual funds that invested in fossil fuels. :sips tea:


playing the hand she was dealt, or saying one thing and doing another? these are just talking points from her party.

the article i posted actually addresses this. Stein actually DID know what she was investing in. check it again.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... PoFacebook
A simple Google search of the name of each of the funds she has invested in returned publicly available marketing documents produced by the investment managers that showed where these funds were investing their capital.

While it’s true that Stein would not have control over the investments of the funds she invested in, she did have a choice of whether to invest in these funds to begin with. In the past, political candidates, in an effort to avoid a conflict of interest or have their judgment called into question, have invested their entire portfolios in U.S. Treasuries, cash/cash equivalents, in socially responsible index funds, or clean-energy funds.

While Stein claims that she had difficulty finding funds that aligned with her values, she didn’t explain why she chose to remain in funds that are completely disjointed from her values. Many critics say clean-energy and socially responsible investment funds offer a poor rate of return and should generally be avoided. And with the Fed keeping interest rates below 1 percent, U.S. Treasuries and cash/cash equivalents don’t offer a high rate of return by anyone’s standard.
Which likely explains why Stein chose to invest her wealth in funds that have often offered double-digit returns.


so really, her supposed values were trumped (ha) by love of money. how is this anticapitalist? seems really fake to me.

another item to note: Drumpf doesn't believe in climate change and wants to get rid of @75% of ALL EPA regulations. at the least, Clinton believes in climate change and does want to work harder to protect the environment. yet the Green party supports Drumpf? what the actual fuck?!?!

in regards to the devils we know, we actually know more about Hillary Clinton than any other candidate in history. we have her medical records ffs. this whole "shady" persona she carries is sexism, pure & simple.

you know, cuz we can't trust a woman! /62
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Re: Johnson/Weld Spinoff Thread

Postby NaranjaRa » Wed Nov 02, 2016 12:45 am

AliceElite wrote:Drumpf is obviously a shitbag, but better the devil you know than the one who can do basically whatever she wants through back channels.


"back-channels" - what does that even mean? you know that EVERYTHING that gets DONE is done through back-channels, right? the NEW DEAL was passed via "back-channels". if you're a socialist, then you're for Universal Health Care, yes? you know that Clinton has been called a socialist for YEARS because she FOUGHT and FOUGHT to get Universal Health Care passed, right? but it's better to vote for someone who wants to completely GUT the closest thing to UHC we've ever had?

think about this...when you bake a cake, you sometimes break a few eggs, right? but what's more important, the cake, or the broken eggs???

this is NOT the election for protest voting. it's just not, hun. talk to some old Nader voters...not just me. we all hate ourselves a little for that one.
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Re: Johnson/Weld Spinoff Thread

Postby AliceElite » Wed Nov 02, 2016 2:30 pm

I posted my comments in three parts and made a mess for myself to respond to your responsesssss I should have just taken the time to edit my goddamn posts ughhhh

But you make some serious points and once kid is off to school I'll compile and respond.<3 ilu
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Re: Johnson/Weld Spinoff Thread

Postby cerrodepedro » Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:18 pm

AliceElite wrote:Also, all our faves are problematic - Stein still hasn't given me a satisfactory answer on some of the stuff she said several years ago regarding trans folks, and she still hasn't clarified her "autism is a public health epidemic" comment, but honestly if that is the worst that she's got I'm okay with that.

I would like to point out that Stein actually went to standing rock and has actively worked against the fossil fuel industry, Clinton put out a statement that was deliberately vague and very clearly showed that she thinks that the oil companies matter more than the treaties, Drumpf literally could not care any less, and Johnson would like to deregulate everything resulting in more oil spills, but, you know Jill Stein DID put money in mutual funds that invested in fossil fuels. :sips tea:


These are my feelings, too. If FB weren't such a cesspool I'd consider being more vocal about said feelings, but the spoons are limited nowadays.
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Re: Johnson/Weld Spinoff Thread

Postby cerrodepedro » Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:21 pm

NaranjaRa wrote:talk to some old Nader voters...not just me. we all hate ourselves a little for that one.


Hey, there's always the Cadillac Ranch to heal from that self hatred. Somebody spray painted his face onto one of the nose-down cars during the actual election, and it has only been spray painted around since. Every time I see those ears it makes me smile.
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Re: Johnson/Weld Spinoff Thread

Postby NaranjaRa » Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:29 pm

cerrodepedro wrote:
AliceElite wrote:Also, all our faves are problematic - Stein still hasn't given me a satisfactory answer on some of the stuff she said several years ago regarding trans folks, and she still hasn't clarified her "autism is a public health epidemic" comment, but honestly if that is the worst that she's got I'm okay with that.

I would like to point out that Stein actually went to standing rock and has actively worked against the fossil fuel industry, Clinton put out a statement that was deliberately vague and very clearly showed that she thinks that the oil companies matter more than the treaties, Drumpf literally could not care any less, and Johnson would like to deregulate everything resulting in more oil spills, but, you know Jill Stein DID put money in mutual funds that invested in fossil fuels. :sips tea:


These are my feelings, too. If FB weren't such a cesspool I'd consider being more vocal about said feelings, but the spoons are limited nowadays.


we're here to make each other think, so please spend any leftover spoons here and forget Farcebook.

(btw...i've never come across ANYONE EVER before who knew about the spoon theory, nor have i seen anyone take it outside the realm of the chronically ill. well-played. though personally, i tend to prefer to use the trusty ol' "cast not pearls before swine" saying, especially in reference to social media :giggle: )
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Re: Johnson/Weld Spinoff Thread

Postby NaranjaRa » Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:53 pm

i also wamt to add something else in regards to Stein's investments...

turn the tables around: if it was Clinton who preached one thing but invested her money in ways that contradicted what she said, everyone would be going apeshit. if it was Drumpf, there would be eyerolls but no one would be surprised and like his rapey the rapester sleeze, it would be glossed over and he would just be considered a smart investor. if it was Johnson...well, no one would really care, either...

because if Clinton didn't have 30 years of bullshit piled on her from every direction & weighing down everyone's consciousness, i believe we wouldn't even be having this conversation about Stein & Johnson potentially becoming spoilers.

the reason why it's worth more than just sipping tea is because the Green party is not holding her to the standards of seeming moral superiority it likes to bask in. it's a double-standard. it's what's frustrated me about the Greens in general for years now. i've grown up watching it become overrun by super-idealistic young people who have never had to really fight for anything in their lives, who have barely been out of school long enough to even have real jobs, who have bought into the republican myth that government is *bad*, and who think they can *stick it to the man* by voting for a barely-there 3rd party that is not always completely grounded in reality.

yeah, our system sucks. but it also DOES WORK FOR SOME PEOPLE. actually, a lot of people. how many million just got health coverage who never had it before? that's a lot of people who might now have a better chance at becoming productive members of society instead of being left to suffer and possibly even die because they couldn't afford medical expenses. and that's just one example. can it be improved? ALWAYS. but again, in reality, these improvements happen incrementally. they happen with negotiations, and yes, back-room deals that make sure everyone agrees and gets what they want in order to make real change happen. if you do not think this is how it's done, or that your favorite candidate would *never* work behind-the-scenes to ensure important policies are carried out, then you're just naive.
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Re: Johnson/Weld Spinoff Thread

Postby Rivoc » Wed Nov 09, 2016 4:58 am

Well I definitely fell off of the Johnson wagon. The more I thought about it, the more it reigned and rained over me that all that slashing without concise details on how to do it successfully was not worth my vote. I couldn't do it. Even if he had a decent shot, I couldn't vote for him.


I was so optimistic at first. It was moreso how he appeared in interviews combined with the Last Week Tonight that gave me a need to do more investigation. I found nothing that erased my doubts.
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Re: Johnson/Weld Spinoff Thread

Postby NaranjaRa » Wed Nov 09, 2016 9:57 am

Rivoc wrote:Well I definitely fell off of the Johnson wagon. The more I thought about it, the more it reigned and rained over me that all that slashing without concise details on how to do it successfully was not worth my vote. I couldn't do it. Even if he had a decent shot, I couldn't vote for him.


I was so optimistic at first. It was moreso how he appeared in interviews combined with the Last Week Tonight that gave me a need to do more investigation. I found nothing that erased my doubts.


you're so awesome for sharing that. :kiss: (sun)

i think the biggest problem we face now is education, or lack thereof. too many people listen to what other people on tv and radio tell them - and often only listen to those who reconfirm their personal beliefs - instead of doing their own research into fact.

i don't speak of politics anywhere else but here, because i know that we are a reasonable bunch with a strong foundation of respect. and though our opinions on things may differ strongly at times, we can at least actually discuss those differences with intelligence...and even sometimes...help spark change in each other.
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Re: Johnson/Weld Spinoff Thread

Postby Rivoc » Sun Nov 13, 2016 8:34 pm

Lots of people acting like jackasses on both sides now. Nothing good will come from this.
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Re: Johnson/Weld Spinoff Thread

Postby NaranjaRa » Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:55 am

the major media is actually reporting how facts don't matter anymore.

we're headed on a fast train, ya'll: Idiocracy
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Re: 3rd Party Voting

Postby NaranjaRa » Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:40 am

//re-titled thread to '3rd Party Voting' so discussion can continue outside of the prior election's choices

wanted to drop a couple of quotes from this article i just read from Noam Chomsky. now, he does speak from a liberal perspective, specifically, but his take on "Lesser Evil Voting" is something i agree with especially in regards to protest voting:

Generally associated with the religious left, secular leftists implicitly invoke it when they reject LEV on the grounds that “a lesser of two evils is still evil.” Leaving aside the obvious rejoinder that this is exactly the point of lesser evil voting-i.e. to do less evil, what needs to be challenged is the assumption that voting should be seen a form of individual self-expression rather than as an act to be judged on its likely consequences, specifically those outlined in 4). The basic moral principle at stake is simple: not only must we take responsibility for our actions, but the consequences of our actions for others are a far more important consideration than feeling good about ourselves.

The broader lesson to be drawn is not to shy away from confronting the dominance of the political system under the management of the two major parties. Rather, challenges to it need to be issued with a full awareness of their possible consequences. This includes the recognition that far right victories not only impose terrible suffering on the most vulnerable segments of society but also function as a powerful weapon in the hands of the establishment center, which, now in opposition can posture as the “reasonable” alternative.


which culminates to the main point:
1) Voting should not be viewed as a form of personal self-expression or moral judgement directed in retaliation towards major party candidates who fail to reflect our values, or of a corrupt system designed to limit choices to those acceptable to corporate elites.


that is all for now :wink:

full article: An Eight Point Brief for LEV (Lesser Evil Voting)
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Re: 3rd Party Voting

Postby Psy » Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:14 am

I vote you have a third party.

This time with Blackjack and Hookers.
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