THE WAR ON REALITY

Postby **NaranjaRa** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:50 am

the idea that one forms their opinions after research and careful thought and introspection is no longer relevant or even desirable. the anti-education, anti-knowledge movement has now taken the forefront. it would seem that almost half the nation is now choosing to support their beliefs with false information masquerading as fact, opinion masquerading as news, and the actual truth being labeled as "fake".

news organizations are no longer catering to wide audiences. instead, nowadays people pick and chose where they get their information from,and as networks specialize and cater more and more to smaller groups of people, it has become easier and easier for people to simply chose to get their news from networks that support their worldviews instead of inform and challenge them. i believe this is one of the main problems.

this thread if for discussing this trend of Belief held at a higher standing than actual Fact in our current political climate, how a leader who lies daily is more believed than the free press, how opinion and anecdote are being used to shape policy, and how we can combat it as fact, history, and science-loving folk.

Postby **Brewtality** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:39 am

Well in lieu of a proper discussion started by the OP, let's not forget how people like to hear what they want to hear and prefer to listen to and accept things which already jive with their worldview. A lot of the people who voted for Drumpf didn't vote for him so he could stand there telling the truth. They wanted him there to stand up and spout the same alt-right bullshit they already believe in.

Postby **NaranjaRa** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 6:17 am

it's frightening.
sorry i didn't frame a proper OP yet but i know folks already are aware of EXACTLY what i refer to

but i also want to figure out how to COMBAT THIS SHIT. we need to come up with some strategies because currently, the ones we have, like you know, FACTS, aren't working but instead being referred to as "fake news".

Postby **NaranjaRa** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 6:53 am

Oliver was the inspiration for this thread btw

Postby **Brewtality** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 8:56 am

Facts are our greatest weapon. We just need to make sure that the message gets out there. Call him out on his bullshit. Protest. Use the media. Use social media. Fuck the people on the left and right who like to live in their echo chambers. We're not going to change the mind of people on r/The_Donald and we're not going to get anything done by banging on about safe spaces and agreeing with each other online about how a particularly costume in a video game is misogynist.

Focus on the issues. Don't get sidetracked. Trumps's personality is great to mock but it is not what's bad about him. Who cares if he's a greedy, sexist pig? SO was JFK and people love him. Lyndon Johnson used to get his over-sized penis out all the time in front of high ranking male and female staff. Clinton lied to everyone about getting down and dirty with an intern in the Oval Office. Like it or not, these are the kinds of people who end up in these positions. Focus on what he's doing. Focus on what he's saying. Read the executive orders. Pay attention to what is going in different bills.

Now is the time to strike up a relationship with your representatives. A lot of politicians don't like Drumpf any more than we do. Let them know how you feel. Tell them exactly how these policies are affecting the people around you. Give them ammunition to use at the higher echelons of government. They are there to represent you. Leave the shit about 'fake news' and whatever to someone else. You have the means and the opportunity to raise your concerns at a higher level. Use them.

I think the best way to combat this skewed view of reality is to actively be the reality you are trying to promote and protect. Help the people you see. Do nice things for people and don't expect a 'thank you'. Kill the negativity with love and those who wallow in talk of their enemies will end up seeing enemies in each other and the whole house of cards will come tumbling down. This is a WEAK regime and it WILL fall under popular pressure. Drumpf can be defeated and I personally can't imagine him lasting the full term. Piss him off. Wind him up. Show him that he is wrong and he will do something stupid, mark my words.

Refuse. Resist.

Postby **NaranjaRa** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:46 pm

that was perfection, Brew (sun)

The phone numbers for every single U.S. Senator are below.
Copy, paste, share.
Let them hear you.

Spoiler: show

Postby **Phara** » Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:02 pm

oh this is quite interesting. in some form or another it's always been around in the forms of yellow journalism and the victor washing of all history books, but to see it take this kind of forefront alongside this odd notion that EDUCATION IS BAD... is new in my lifetime. Or rather it's reach some kind of tipping point.

Postby **NaranjaRa** » Sat Feb 18, 2017 4:20 pm

this time period is literally starting to be called the "post-truth" era.
/62

//clarified OP a bit better

Postby **Skywalker** » Sun Feb 19, 2017 4:00 am

The war on Reality...

This is credited towards folks such as 45, who decided that he no longer likes the news, thus it is now fake. Calling news stations such as CNN really fake news, does nothing to help anyone. Sure you may not like them, in fact, I think today McCain stated that he didn't like one reporter, but he said that the reporter was needed because of Free Press. It is the final check in everything. I think the downturn of the news media happened maybe during the Election of Obama, because Fox News spun it as the end was near, and fed into the fears of conservative republicans, that he was a socialist and going to do everything possible to destroy the United States.

Now the same is currently happening with the reporting on 45. While I am personally more inclined to believe them on this one. Just due to the actions of our current president. He has some wild ideas, and I think that others within the White House are actually in charge.

Currently right now, the news media, the mainstream news media is trying to figure out the best way to report in this new media. When you have those who speak with authority stating about alt-facts and how it is all subjective. As a historian, cold hard facts, are not subjective. Now there is some aspect of history that is subjective, but those tend to be pre-history (where there is no written history). That is subjective, but hell even archaeologist have a firm grasp of what has happened. So I do not know what the white house is up to.

All we can do is sit back and try and understand the world around us. The best way to do that is to find and read different news stories, from both sides. Step outside of the echo chamber of your views. This may be uncomfortable, but it is needed to gain a better understanding of reality.

Postby **NaranjaRa** » Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:48 pm

it didn't start with him though. websites like Breitbart and InfoWars (his two apparent favorites) have been pushing conspiracy and disinfo for a much longer time than he's been in the political arena. they foster stories such as Sandy Hook being a "false flag" created to push through gun-control legislation. this kind of deliberate, politically-charged confusion seeps right into the minds of people who are easily ruled by fear. and fear is exactly what is fueling 45's choices in regards to the base of supporters he cultivates. he went right for the easiest target.

recently, CNN and other "mainstream" outlets weren't just referred to as Fake...but as "enemies of the American people." this is highly disturbing, as is the exact OPPOSITE is the reality. one merely needs to recall the Washington Post's role in Watergate and taking down Nixon.

of course the news gets it wrong, but this is also a product of today's 24/7 reporting channels who are constantly in a race with each other to get the story out first, and often waiting for confirmation of supposed "facts" ends up coming in second to just running with whatever they find out. we saw a very ugly example of this during the Boston Marathon bombing ordeal. but this is still not cause to simply write off all mainstream news outlets as liars. of course *we* know this. the rest just *wants* to believe it, and thus, it becomes the New Truth.

i use multiple sources, make sure to follow links to original sources, read beyond the click-bait headlines, and research who is behind the smaller independent outlets to see what kind of bias owns them. even history can be misleading as only "approved" facts end up making it into the books and only much later do we end up getting different or more complete versions of an event. as Phara mentioned, there has been immense white-washing through time. so people have been disingenuous for sure in what has been reported back to us. but this has been taken so far out of context and is used to paint these broad strokes that are not meant to educate people further with the "actual truth".

now, we're just being told LIES are Truth.

it's so very dangerous...when we cannot even agree on simple facts like what the weather was doing when a president was sworn in...

Postby **Zansi'Vara** » Wed Feb 22, 2017 7:37 am

I think the biggest problem with the media is that news outlets no longer perform investigative journalism. It has become much easier to simply find a story on the internet and copy-paste it to your paper without checking the facts first. I stopped trusting anything told to me by any media outlet a long time ago, because EVERY media outlet has only a singular desire: to make money. And how does a media outlet make money? They get consistent readership, and they do that by any means necessary, including writing exaggerated or entirely false stories to pull people in and keep them hooked.

The biggest problem in general, however, is simply that people have become too absorbed in their own narcissism and biases that they simply assume their position is correct without ever feeling any need to research it. Almost nobody actively doubts anymore, they only passively accept what is fed to them. I suppose it's cognitively easier that way. Their brains have to do less work is they just choose to never think.

Postby **NaranjaRa** » Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:27 pm

Zansi'Vara wrote:I think the biggest problem with the media is that news outlets no longer perform investigative journalism. It has become much easier to simply find a story on the internet and copy-paste it to your paper without checking the facts first. I stopped trusting anything told to me by any media outlet a long time ago, because EVERY media outlet has only a singular desire: to make money. And how does a media outlet make money? They get consistent readership, and they do that by any means necessary, including writing exaggerated or entirely false stories to pull people in and keep them hooked.

this started happening in the 70's. what happened to Christine Chubbuck in some ways was the first spark, and then a few years later the film Network nailed it completely. it's all about ratings, so the more sensational the story, the more likely it will be reported and the deeper, more investigative or positive stories get buried.

the reason why so many stations report on accidents, murders, and fires is because quite simply, it's EASY. the don't have to do any research. they simply pull up their van, hop out, and ask a few neighbors what happened and boom, it's "fit to print".

Postby **Zansi'Vara** » Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:09 pm

NaranjaRa wrote:this started happening in the 70's. what happened to Christine Chubbuck in some ways was the first spark, and then a few years later the film Network nailed it completely. it's all about ratings, so the more sensational the story, the more likely it will be reported and the deeper, more investigative or positive stories get buried.

the reason why so many stations report on accidents, murders, and fires is because quite simply, it's EASY. the don't have to do any research. they simply pull up their van, hop out, and ask a few neighbors what happened and boom, it's "fit to print".

Exactly, true investigative journalism is what we need in this country if we are to honestly hold the White House to account. We NEED the journalists of the Watergate era, where they reported the truth regardless of their political leanings or how it may affect their favorite party. Now, they report whatever is politically convenient to their narrative, and most throw honesty and truth to the wind. I actually trust the research and investigative journalism of YouTubers, like Vernaculis and MundaneMatt, far more than any media organizations at this point, and that's disturbing to me.

Postby **NaranjaRa** » Sun Mar 05, 2017 12:34 am

[2/24/2017 11:59:20 AM] Paul "Feydakin" Hurtado: The government doesn't give us our unalienable human rights, not by God, Gods or dictum. You just have them, they aren't granted by anyone, nor do they need any protection other than what your other unalienable human rights can give you, freedom of speech and freedom to keep and bear arms. That's why I believe in less government. They don't GIVE me my rights, I just HAVE them, and I don't like ANY federal laws dictating those to myself or anyone else.
[2/24/2017 12:00:00 PM] Paul "Feydakin" Hurtado: I feel like allowing them to dictate to me what I HAVE they then have the power to take them away, and they DO NOT
[2/24/2017 12:00:23 PM] Paul "Feydakin" Hurtado: That is the core of my belief with regard to the Federal government and their role
[2/24/2017 12:01:58 PM] nannabot (NaranjaRa): i do completely agree. we are born with them. government doesn't give them. they can only take them away.
but in such a complex society, in a large country, sometimes we need those rights we're born with to have some level of protection. that's all i ask for. like allowing gay people to marry each other. just basic human shit. because people are assholes. this is what i want the fed to help out with really.
[2/24/2017 12:03:35 PM] Paul "Feydakin" Hurtado: See they CAN'T take them away as long as we recognize the importance of our Constitution and Amendments, especially the first and second! Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness! :D
[2/24/2017 12:04:07 PM] nannabot (NaranjaRa): also a free press
[2/24/2017 12:04:09 PM] Paul "Feydakin" Hurtado: People are going to freaking the fuck out when they start repealing gun laws, holy shit.
[2/24/2017 12:04:17 PM] nannabot (NaranjaRa): that's in the 1st ammendment
[2/24/2017 12:04:19 PM] Paul "Feydakin" Hurtado: Free press is part of free speech
[2/24/2017 12:04:47 PM] nannabot (NaranjaRa): the press therefore is not the enemy of the American people but our final check & balance
[2/24/2017 12:06:22 PM] Paul "Feydakin" Hurtado: The media is like any other capitalist endeavor though, the market, aka the People will decide if they trust them and want to participate in their service. I should try and find that CNN clip I saw the other day... :D
[2/24/2017 12:08:00 PM] nannabot (NaranjaRa): oh all the big names are owned by the same handful of companies. they'll never report anything that sheds a bad light on the corporations.
[2/24/2017 12:08:39 PM] nannabot (NaranjaRa): its the Woodwards & Bernsteins within those places we depend on
[2/24/2017 12:10:03 PM] Paul "Feydakin" Hurtado: In case I can't find it; A CNN anchor during a panel discussion was talking (of course) about Drumpf trying to sway public opinion and tell people what to think, to paraphrase she said, "that's our job"... on camera, live... I was like, WOW, lol. :D
[2/24/2017 12:10:23 PM] nannabot (NaranjaRa): opinion masquerading as news
[2/24/2017 12:10:35 PM] nannabot (NaranjaRa): it's ruining a lot of shit
[2/24/2017 12:10:47 PM] nannabot (NaranjaRa): making folks believe anything
[2/24/2017 12:11:35 PM] Paul "Feydakin" Hurtado: Well here's the thing, it's ALL colored by personal opinion, but at least some people don't try and hide behind "journalistic integrity" and "impartial news reporting". People that just admit where they are coming from, that I can respect.
[2/24/2017 12:12:16 PM] nannabot (NaranjaRa): but the news in general used to be a lot more impartial
[2/24/2017 12:12:26 PM] Paul "Feydakin" Hurtado: People just need to realize that they can't trust that, and need to watch everything, research and make up their own minds. I do think a lot of people are doing that now, more and more.
[2/24/2017 12:13:28 PM] Paul "Feydakin" Hurtado: Yeah, for sure, but bias has been becoming more and more prevalent over the years. What used to be an editorial is now often portrayed as "news".

Postby **bigsexywzp** » Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:52 am

<quote> People just need to realize that they can't trust that, and need to watch everything, research and make up their own minds. I do think a lot of people are doing that now, more and more. </quote>

The problem with this? Facts aren't subject to interpretation. Facts exist in a natural dichotomy. True or false. Right or wrong.

There really is no in between.

Opinions are the opposite. Opinions are subject to interpretation. Opinions can be true, false, or somewhere in between.

"Making up your own mind" is just a way of saying opinions should be viewed as equally or more valid than facts. That's not true.

People can get pissed off at the news all they want, but the news media are educated and trained NOT to give opinions. They leave emotions and belief out of what they report and stick ONLY to facts.

The problem is not the news. The problem? Is spin and infotainment. People who are paid to interpret facts and give opinion, masquerading as information. These people are cited as the authorities on what is true or false, not the people who actually give the basic facts, but the people who spin it for political or personal gain.

At some point? We are going to have to draw a line.

Postby **Zansi'Vara** » Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:14 pm

bigsexywzp wrote:<quote> People just need to realize that they can't trust that, and need to watch everything, research and make up their own minds. I do think a lot of people are doing that now, more and more. </quote>

The problem with this? Facts aren't subject to interpretation. Facts exist in a natural dichotomy. True or false. Right or wrong.

There really is no in between.

Opinions are the opposite. Opinions are subject to interpretation. Opinions can be true, false, or somewhere in between.

"Making up your own mind" is just a way of saying opinions should be viewed as equally or more valid than facts. That's not true.

People can get pissed off at the news all they want, but the news media are educated and trained NOT to give opinions. They leave emotions and belief out of what they report and stick ONLY to facts.

The problem is not the news. The problem? Is spin and infotainment. People who are paid to interpret facts and give opinion, masquerading as information. These people are cited as the authorities on what is true or false, not the people who actually give the basic facts, but the people who spin it for political or personal gain.

At some point? We are going to have to draw a line.

But what percentage of the news has BECOME infotainment? To me, it seems like more and more news organizations are creeping over that line in a desperate attempt to stay relevant, and in doing so they're allowing their personal biases to inform their reporting. The more organizations that do this, the less anyone will trust any media to tell the unbiased truth, and that's what we see happening.

Postby **NaranjaRa** » Fri Mar 31, 2017 6:55 am

not trusting mainstream media is also not an excuse to TOTALLY trust alternative media, like we see happening.

and as much as newscasters are trained to just report without bias, that's not at all what most do anymore. it's not only the idea of infotainment getting in the way, but it's the insertion of carefully worded bias into more and more media outlets. now it's at the point where these outlets cater only to specific audiences, and are encouraged to be biased by the owners. Fox is the best example of this. their journalists get memos telling them what to report, what to downplay, what to emphasize, and the exact phrases to repeat. problem is most of the same people who don't trust "mainstream" news still listen to everything said on that one channel.

Postby **Feydakin** » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:30 pm

Here's my first contribution to this topic. This goes hand in hand with the whole "Fake News" phenomenon, so I thought this video was a good fit.

Postby **NaranjaRa** » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:10 pm

good vid...yes, very fitting and gives the same basic conclusion we've come up with. it's really all about money.

here's my frustrating real life example: my mom. she's always been distrustful of ALL politicians, and MOST news stories. but the people she works with in this small red town in a blue state have slowly been, well, basically brainwashing her. she says she's independent but only watches Fox news now. she posts "blue lives matter" shit on her facebook. reposts false info about immigrants. the whole gross 9 yards.

when confronted about being misinformed, her response is to get angry and then shut down the discussion while declaring, "Well I'll just keep my own opinions."

yeah that's fine and all, but as mentioned before in this thread, FACTS are FACTS. opinions are not worth shit in the face of them. she literally just does not want to know that she believes something wrong, and would rather "keep" her wrong ideas.

it's a microcosm for the rest of the country, in a nutshell.

Postby **Arg** » Tue May 09, 2017 8:50 pm

This is a very interesting thread to me. Back before 2010 I always thought it was surreal when I watched news coming out of the USA. Their news organizations seemed to be the PR wings of political parties with very little unbiased reporting. I was used to a news cycle that tried its best to call things down the middle rather than trying to create conflict.

With the rise of online Journalism and more importantly social media this right VS left approach to news cycles has only grown and has unfortunately "spilled over" to the rest of western culture.

I blame social media for all of this. People give more weight to whats "trending" and what their friends are talking about than whats an actual fact. There are hordes of people who genuinely think things like "Bush did 9/11" or "Obama is secretly a Muslim working for the Saudis" or more recently that "Russia hacked the election"

If we want to undo this damage and heal the divide we need to create a culture in which Journalism is seperated from both advertising influence and political influence. It needs to become a seperate and neuteral pillar of society.

This is the only way we can combat the mass disinformation campaigns that are constantly undertaken by the politcal elite against each other.

I have no idea how any of this would be acomplished. I need a reset button.

Postby **Feydakin** » Tue May 09, 2017 8:58 pm

Ironically, the push back into more unbiased reporting has come from independent journalists on the internet. People like the guy whose video I posted above. His political views are pretty much the polar opposite of mine, but he's honest and recognizes the partisan nature of current MSM, and rails against it. I trust guys like Tim Pool more than I trust MSM. Recently Tim reported live from Paris during the presidential vote, talked to people on the street and covered as much as he could. All from public donations. This guy worked for Vibe and Buzzfeed I believe and I value his opinion more than the mainstream.

Postby **NaranjaRa** » Wed May 10, 2017 10:43 pm

Arg wrote:If we want to undo this damage and heal the divide we need to create a culture in which Journalism is seperated from both advertising influence and political influence. It needs to become a seperate and neuteral pillar of society.

so true. like Feyd mentions, that only seems to be happening online now. it might be the only platform left available still free from the influences that taint the information. journalism didn't always used to be like this. up into the early 70's most reporters were keeping things pretty middle-of-the-road. advertisers and corporate mergers have shaped the media into something completely different now and the only way to send a message is for people to completely tune it out. sadly, too many are completely plugged in to it, and HARD...

what is Fox's motto: We Report, You Decide.

well, NO...when FACTS are actually reported, NO you actually DON'T get to "decide"!

Postby **Feydakin** » Thu May 11, 2017 10:37 am

The mainstream is even trying to take the internet away from the independent content creators and journalists. They are doing everything they can short of straight up censoring content that doesn't follow the mainstream. Evidenced by the fact that for a while Youtube was putting all LBGTQ content in restricted mode only, which means that you cannot monetize it through ads, which is the only way many of the content creators were able to fund themselves. While Google/Youtube have since taken steps to take most LBGTQ content off restricted mode, a ton of other innocuous content is still left demonetized. Any mention of firearms, Islam, Sharia, conservatism, or anything they deem "adult" content is put in restricted mode and demonetized (almost all of which wasn't considered so before). Most conservative vloggers, firearms based channels, and especially independent journalists that deliver content via Youtube have had to go to crowdfunding resources like Patreon or pay for content services to be able to make ends meet and continue to deliver content. It has a chilling effect that a conspiracy-minded fellow might think was intended. It's downright Orwellian, even if your politics don't line up with those content creators you really have to admit that it's wrong.

Postby **ink** » Mon May 15, 2017 6:23 am

Feydakin wrote:The mainstream is even trying to take the internet away from the independent content creators and journalists. They are doing everything they can short of straight up censoring content that doesn't follow the mainstream. Evidenced by the fact that for a while Youtube was putting all LBGTQ content in restricted mode only, which means that you cannot monetize it through ads, which is the only way many of the content creators were able to fund themselves. While Google/Youtube have since taken steps to take most LBGTQ content off restricted mode, a ton of other innocuous content is still left demonetized. Any mention of firearms, Islam, Sharia, conservatism, or anything they deem "adult" content is put in restricted mode and demonetized (almost all of which wasn't considered so before). Most conservative vloggers, firearms based channels, and especially independent journalists that deliver content via Youtube have had to go to crowdfunding resources like Patreon or pay for content services to be able to make ends meet and continue to deliver content. It has a chilling effect that a conspiracy-minded fellow might think was intended. It's downright Orwellian, even if your politics don't line up with those content creators you really have to admit that it's wrong.

without question

Postby **Feydakin** » Tue May 16, 2017 4:12 pm

Wow, this is some Orwellian shit. Google and Bing have changed the definition of the word "fascism" to mark it as a partisan, "Right Wing" form of government only... Guess we really can't trust anyone or any information that we find on the internet anymore.

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