Tommy Sotomayor via Dave Rubin: Uncle Tom?

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Tommy Sotomayor via Dave Rubin: Uncle Tom?

Postby Feydakin » Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:17 pm

So Dave Rubin recently did an interview with controversial black conservative Tommy Sotomayor. I was really curious to see what other people thought of the things he is saying... I know a lot of people like to call him an "Uncle Tom" for his views, as well as other such names. In three parts, which I will link below.



Part 2:
Spoiler: show


Part 3:
Spoiler: show
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Re: Tommy Sotomayor via Dave Rubin: Uncle Tom?

Postby ink » Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:36 am

its funny... so the main theme is personal responsibility/ownership, but he seems to put the systematic onus on a party faction rather than the ideology that has been pushed for hundreds of years. white supremacy. this is highly suspect and smells of hidden agenda. at this point in time, tommy actually has quite a bit to gain, in terms of prestige, as he continues to take such a provocative stance.

so with that said, after 60 minutes of dialog and absolutely no solutions...

its the empty tin cans that make the most noise.


he gets a mr. 62 from me. /62
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Re: Tommy Sotomayor via Dave Rubin: Uncle Tom?

Postby NaranjaRa » Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:06 pm

part 3: [racisim] "...it's not built into the system anymore" ?!?!

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAAAAA
guess Rubin hasn't seen the 13th yet or knows about the voting manipulation going on in states, especially the south.

there are some interesting things discussed...just not sure i agree with a lot of it.
i'll have to think some more on this...
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Re: Tommy Sotomayor via Dave Rubin: Uncle Tom?

Postby Feydakin » Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:02 pm

Personally I think he goes way too far into his narrative. There's a lot there that I agree with, but there are some things that I fundamentally disagree with too... The key is not to just dismiss him out of hand because there's one thing he says that you don't like or agree with.
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Re: Tommy Sotomayor via Dave Rubin: Uncle Tom?

Postby NaranjaRa » Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:59 pm

well like Ink said, i think he pushes and tries to be overly controversial because he gets publicity.

one of the things that sticks in my head the most is what he said about black women - single mothers, specifically, and the violence perpetuated on their kids. i used to think that the "black mom yelling / being mean to her kid in the supermarket" was a stereotype. but then i moved into a literal ghetto and saw how tough moms were on their children in my neighborhood. the thing he does not bring up however, is that these single moms might be compensating to some degree for the absence of a male / father role model in the household. i think sometimes they are trying to be tough because they feel like they have to if there is no man around to do it. he paints it as a choice, "we don't need no man" but i think that is simply a defense mechanism to coat over the fact that they really in fact DO. and when there isn't one, they have to be both roles, mother and father. and how many women know how to be a dad? not many, if any. so they turn to the wooden spoon. it's a cycle that needs to be broken, but he offers no solutions, just criticism towards the wrong aspect of the problem.
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Re: Tommy Sotomayor via Dave Rubin: Uncle Tom?

Postby Feydakin » Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:11 pm

He does offer solutions... don't have children out of wedlock.
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Re: Tommy Sotomayor via Dave Rubin: Uncle Tom?

Postby NaranjaRa » Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:19 pm

nope. being married means shit. a piece of paper is not a guarantee a couple will stay together, nor that a parent will take a proper role raising their child.
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Re: Tommy Sotomayor via Dave Rubin: Uncle Tom?

Postby ink » Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:20 pm

maaaan... i want to say soooo much right now, but ill keep it simple. the reason he gets branded a tom and a snowflake is becuz of the self hate. the common theme is berating black culture, using his platform specifically to do so.. and furthermore, giving validation to those who are outside the experience because they found someone who says what they want to say, and have not the understanding nor balls to speak on such things.. and oh, everyone just supposed to side with him cuz he is black and come from that bastard era... well guess what, so am i. but i dont self hate. i love my white roots and i love my black roots. i also, have understanding in regards to why we are where we at.
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Re: Tommy Sotomayor via Dave Rubin: Uncle Tom?

Postby NaranjaRa » Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:30 pm

ink wrote:the common theme is berating black culture, using his platform specifically to do so.. and furthermore, giving validation to those who are outside the experience because they found someone who says what they want to say, and have not the understanding nor balls to speak on such things..


i agree with you 100% Ink, and ^ THAT ^ especially is the insight i've been waiting for.
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Re: Tommy Sotomayor via Dave Rubin: Uncle Tom?

Postby Feydakin » Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:09 am

Yes, but are any of his arguments valid?
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Re: Tommy Sotomayor via Dave Rubin: Uncle Tom?

Postby NaranjaRa » Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:13 am

validity would suggest coming from a place of logic and facts. instead, what he does is manipulate white society's Fear of the Other and misunderstanding / refusal to recognize historical context and continued rigging of the game for his own gain.
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Re: Tommy Sotomayor via Dave Rubin: Uncle Tom?

Postby Feydakin » Fri Apr 14, 2017 3:07 pm

NaranjaRa wrote:nope. being married means shit. a piece of paper is not a guarantee a couple will stay together, nor that a parent will take a proper role raising their child.


I should expand that to actually say what I meant, that being give the child(ren) a nuclear family, with a proper mother and father. Or at the very least, the father and mother should have an equal and full life with their child(ren), irrespective of their marital status.

NaranjaRa wrote:validity would suggest coming from a place of logic and facts. instead, what he does is manipulate white society's Fear of the Other and misunderstanding / refusal to recognize historical context and continued rigging of the game for his own gain.


I think dismissing his ideas and points out of hand because you don't agree with how he arrives at them and promotes them is unhelpful, but OK. I don't particularly like it either, but I can't honestly say that he's not right in some ways. I'm obviously not black, but I can speak from a place of having grown up in poverty and a broken home, and the anecdotal evidence that I grew up with all around me. I see how the kids I knew that grew up in whole homes, with a father and mother ended up generally doing much better than those that didn't. It seems logical to me to come to the conclusion that the classical nuclear family worked and still works best. I also despise the "mother deity" culture that has just gotten more prevalent in Western society. Just like people like to say that any man that impregnates a woman can be a father, but that doesn't make him a "dad" (insert worthless platitude of your choice); Just because you get yourself knocked up doesn't suddenly make you some demi-god that is beyond reproach. Women have been getting knocked up for millennia, you're not special... what makes you special is what you do after. Same with fathers, same with mothers. Admit there is a problem and then take the hard steps to do something to change it...
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Re: Tommy Sotomayor via Dave Rubin: Uncle Tom?

Postby NaranjaRa » Fri Apr 14, 2017 4:41 pm

wasn't dismissing him without reason, or because i don't agree, so please don't attribute an expected response to me. i also come from a poor, broken home and was doing just fine until i became ill. my single mom did an AMAZING job of raising me. my dad was an asshole and she was right to divorce him when i was 3. when i was very young we lived in a shack with no tv, slept together on a mattress on the floor and had hundreds of diseased cats living on the property she rented. and as a woman, although white as i can be, i just find too much of his bullshit downright offensive to want to pick through and *try* and find the one or two little points that *might* make sense.

at this point i feel i've already said my peace about his views. nothing more really for me to say.
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Re: Tommy Sotomayor via Dave Rubin: Uncle Tom?

Postby NaranjaRa » Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:04 pm

Feydakin wrote:
NaranjaRa wrote:nope. being married means shit. a piece of paper is not a guarantee a couple will stay together, nor that a parent will take a proper role raising their child.


I should expand that to actually say what I meant, that being give the child(ren) a nuclear family, with a proper mother and father. Or at the very least, the father and mother should have an equal and full life with their child(ren), irrespective of their marital status.


though i have nothing more to comment in regards to Sotomayor himself, this specific topic was brought up yesterday by my mom and i remembered something i wanted to share here as well.

first of all, putting the issue down to a most black women having kids out of wedlock is, i'm sorry, really over-simplifying things and just a little bit racist (because hey, we all know the common knowledge is that they're all just a bunch of dumb, irresponsible sluts who just want more welfare) as well as sexist (it puts ALL the onus on these "SLUTS" and none on the male half of the party making these kids). i've been reading a LOT of disdain for this so-called "mother glorification culture" around by seemingly angry men online ever since Drumpf became President. maybe it's been around longer, but i guess i don't really even know what it is or get where it comes from, and i'm not a mom so i'm putting that aside for now. PLENTY....i mean PUH-LEN-TEEEE of ladies of all other colors have lots & lots of babies out of wedlock. single mamas exist in every group, in every socio-economic status. so pointing at that as the source of the "problem" in black communities is somewhat irresponsible to me. and i already have my own as well as enough real-life examples of people from poor, broken homes who managed to raise themselves up and do amazingly well in life despite their upbringing in such negative environments.

black women are not ALL just having kids without proper long-tern partners to help them raise their kids. instead, a lot of the times, fact is, the dads are getting locked up and torn from the household, whether legitimately or not.

on a separate note, when we were living in Baltimore surrounded by nothing but poverty, addicts, dealers, and crime, i had this thought for one type of a solution:

what if these drug dealers that stood outside from sun-up to midnight just suddenly took the money they earned each day and instead of buying more drugs to sell to the neighborhood, they decided to invest it IN the neighborhood? they buy up one of the many empty, dilapidated old buildings, like the old corner-store across the street from where we were. they open a new store for the community that is now completely community-owned. they hire people from the neighborhood to work there and sell local goods. they still make money, plus they put money back into the community. they put money back into people's lives instead of into their addictions...food back on their kids' tables to give their brains a chance to better learn in school and break the cycle of educational difficulties. just imagine if that started happening everywhere...how much pride for the communities it would create, how much depression and loathing would lift...how much crime and poverty and illness would end. families would be WHOLE again.

a chain-reaction would begin and it would literally only take these greedy bastards to decide to help out instead of kill people and they could better an entire group of people.

it's a sad mindset that needs to be broken. the greed of immediate fast monetary gains versus doing something that's right and could lift everyone up...
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Re: Tommy Sotomayor via Dave Rubin: Uncle Tom?

Postby ink » Fri Apr 28, 2017 1:18 am

hmm..

well i agree with you feyd, many of his arguments are valid. and i dont agree with them all, but i wouldnt have sat thru 60 min worth if i had dismissed them. my bad, if you got that from my reply.. maybe i should clarify further. what i do dismiss is the presentation under this type of setting or narrative, rather. not a shot to dave rubin. i hardly know the guy but he seemed genuine in the interview. but that said, i meant in a general, macro, sense.. much of what he has to say can be applied to almost any culture, just that fact that he chooses to berate black culture specifically grinds my gears and speaks to something different. he, (tommy) is generalizing.. because one cannot take into the account the many complexities and nuance in one social/cultural construct and then take that same consideration for that of another, and then compare the two to get a nice contrasty, comparison and straight up slander the other... maaan, that is sooo spinny spin spin of him..

so, to echo a part of anna:
ive seen kids get beat in stores from mothers, in a wide range of colors. seen a variety in the line for aid through health and human services, like stamps and housing n such, and lets not forget... single mothers. there's no question.. they come in all colors, same as bastard children. and im quite sure you have seen your share too, so in short, poverty does not discriminate. because lets be honest here, all of these problems are wrestled with, from a wide range of culturally and ethnically diverse peoples. these are people problems from people who have less than.. and that smells of class warfare.


the problem with tommy's rhetoric is that it leaves nothing but hate/shame/disgust left after his points are made, with little to no solutions in play, and totally sideskirts the whole 'why/how did we get here?" root issue. now honestly tell me, what thinking man (or woman), formulates a theory to a problem, without acknowledging the why's or how that problem occurred? clearly rhetorical, but with an influx of many gravitating to video, like youtube.. curious, nonetheless... o_O


abstract: dude is dangerous because he leads many into factions and division, and for what.. to be a hit on youtube..? clever.. :|

but alas, my final confirmation that the above is true, is the red flags that came up throughout his discussion. feelings about my dad, and my life... ones that i had closure with and had peacefully came to terms with. and years later, they come upon me in an unwarranted fashion. its just not coming from the right place. call me foolish, i'll take that.. just cant trust the source.
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Re: Tommy Sotomayor via Dave Rubin: Uncle Tom?

Postby Feydakin » Fri Apr 28, 2017 2:41 am

Of course I'm not saying that this type of culture is tied to one race. I am also not saying that the men have no culpability for perpetuating this culture. I thought that went without saying... I do think that he's being far too simplistic, and he IS a provocateur, BUT the whole point of a provocateur is to be offensive and get people talking and THINKING, especially about issues that might be taboo. I am of course playing a little devil's advocate here, because someone has to, but there is a part of me that does see his points and agrees to some degree, or else I wouldn't have posted this in the first place.

As for the dismissive comment I was talking about Anna. Meaning no offense of course, but people tend to have a very visceral, knee-jerk defensive reaction whenever you question mothers and motherhood, and I firmly believe that it's asinine and counterproductive.
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Re: Tommy Sotomayor via Dave Rubin: Uncle Tom?

Postby NaranjaRa » Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:27 pm

Feydakin wrote:Of course I'm not saying that this type of culture is tied to one race. I am also not saying that the men have no culpability for perpetuating this culture. I thought that went without saying... I do think that he's being far too simplistic, and he IS a provocateur, BUT the whole point of a provocateur is to be offensive and get people talking and THINKING, especially about issues that might be taboo. I am of course playing a little devil's advocate here, because someone has to, but there is a part of me that does see his points and agrees to some degree, or else I wouldn't have posted this in the first place.

As for the dismissive comment I was talking about Anna. Meaning no offense of course, but people tend to have a very visceral, knee-jerk defensive reaction whenever you question mothers and motherhood, and I firmly believe that it's asinine and counterproductive.


i get what you're saying. and i was just pointing out the flaws in that way of thinking, period, so i guess in a roundabout way still making comment on TS himself.

here's the thing about being provocative - you have to have something to land on. you want to knock people off their feet, where are you going to put them? he doesn't give you anything...just provokes for the sake of provoking. and with *some* types of subject matter, in *some* settings, this could be ok...for example, stand-up comedy. but this is obviously not at all a joke. like i said, he might make some interesting points in a couple of places but they are so wrapped and twisted up in this warped, sticky coating that most people do not have the cultural understanding, nor the historical context, nor the desire to unwrap it all to discern what's really going on. and what's on the surface to me is just a giant spider's web...



ps - still don't get the motherhood thing your talking about Feyd. maybe that needs to be a topic of its own? o_O

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