The "New" Catholic Church.

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Phara
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Postby Phara » Fri Apr 08, 2016 4:49 pm

When the Catholic Church surprises you. Etc... etc..

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/pope-francis-divorce-marriage_us_57078290e4b03a9e75d4102f

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VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - Pope Francis on Friday called for a Church that was less strict and more compassionate towards “imperfect” Catholics, such as those who divorced and remarried, saying “no one can be condemned forever”.

Francis said gays should be respected but firmly re-stated the Church’s position that there are “absolutely no grounds” to equate gay unions to heterosexual marriage.

In a 260-page treatise called “Amoris Laetitia,” (The Joy of Love), one of the most eagerly awaited pronouncements of his pontificate, Francis quoted Martin Luther King, Argentine Poet Jorge Luis Borges and even the 1987 Danish cult film Babette’s Feast, to make his case for a more merciful and loving Church.

The keenest anticipation centered on what he would say about the full re-integration into the Church of Catholics who divorce and remarry in civil ceremonies.

Under current Church teaching they cannot receive communion unless they abstain from sex with their new partner, because their first marriage is still valid in the eyes of the Church and they are seen to be living in an adulterous state of sin.

The only way such Catholics can remarry is if they receive an annulment, a religious ruling that their first marriage never existed because of the lack of certain pre-requisites such as psychological maturity or free will.

“No one can be condemned forever, because that is not the logic of the Gospel! Here I am not speaking only of the divorced and remarried, but of everyone, in whatever situation they find themselves,” the pope said.



COMMUNION BAN

Progressives have proposed the use of an “internal forum” in which a priest or bishop work with a Catholic who has divorced and remarried to decide jointly, privately and on a case-by-case basis if he or she can be fully re-integrated and receive communion.

Francis seemed to embrace this view, saying he could “not provide a new set of general rules ... applicable to all cases”, but he called for “responsible, personal and pastoral discernment of particular cases”.

Father James Bretzke, professor of moral theology at Boston College, said while Francis did not explicitly give a green light for remarried Catholics to return to communion, “the dots are pretty close together, you can connect them reasonably easily and conclude that he is saying this is a possibility.

“If he’s not opening the door, he is at least showing you where the key under the mat is.”

Francis said he understood those conservatives who “prefer a more rigorous pastoral care which leaves no room for confusion” but the Church should be more attentive to the good that can be found “in the midst of human weakness”.

“The Church turns with love to those who participate in her life in an imperfect manner,” he said, including in this category those Catholics who are cohabiting, married civilly or are divorced and remarried.

Conservative American Catholic author George Weigel said he did not see an opening to the divorced and remarried but rather “a call for the Church to be creative in integrating people in difficult situations”.

The document, formally known as an Apostolic Exhortation, followed two gatherings of Catholic bishops, or synods, that discussed family issued in 2014 and 2015.

In other sections, Francis said young people had to be better prepared for a life-long commitment, praised the “erotic dimension” of love within marriage and said the Church needed a “healthy dose of self-criticism” for in the past preaching that procreation was the “almost exclusive” reason for marriage.



(Reporting by Philip Pullella; Editing by Crispian Balmer and Janet Lawrence)



//discuss
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ink
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Postby ink » Sat Apr 16, 2016 10:18 am

ok ill start,
through my observations, this new pope seems to want to bring things back to the gospel of christ, but its like all these years of.. and ill just say division within the body(church), for lack of a better term, is almost as if one is trying to untangle a knot thats been growing for the last 2000 years.

in regards to one of the issues, one of the things Jesus spoke of in regards to communion, is to keep him in rememberance when believers gather together to eat/fellowship. how can an institution hold ownership of this practice, and turn it into a ritual of works, to reflect piety and further decide who does and does not get to participate? its hypocrisy. i have much more to say, but to start the ball rolling....
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Philly
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Postby Philly » Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:16 pm

I don't have a religion so forgive my ignorance, but I was under the impression that the majority of religious beliefs were "set in stone" so to speak. Is it more like political stuff where they can amend things? Because it seems like the catholic church anyway, is adapting its rules to fit the current world. Can someone break it down for me?
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Corgimom
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Postby Corgimom » Mon Jun 06, 2016 6:33 pm

Still calls my sexual orientation a choice and a sin. Glad they are making steps out of the dark ages but they remain far from my world.
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Skywalker
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Postby Skywalker » Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:02 pm

The only thing I know about the Catholic church is that my mom is a bad person because she had bastard children and she got a divorce. She could not marry in a church, so the clerk of court took care of that on July 3rd, cause they closed on the 4th (it made is easier for my dad to remember that was the day he got married). Granted my parents were living together for about 10 years before they married each other. Not sure why they never got married, they just did not see the reason to.


Back on topic, at least the church is trying. Things to not happen overnight nor will they ever changed in a day. I think that it will take decades in order to reach something that most people now would think is normal. Then again the Catholic Church has always taken their time on many matters, that is just fact. I did take an undergrad course in religious history, but its main draw was to look at others and then declare how your version of Christianity's was better than everyone else. I was the odd ball out because I declared that I was an agnostic (the only one in the whole damn class of 40. There was very little taught, in terms of the Catholic Church, other than they have a pope.

I think that the church, in reality, a lot of churches could better educate people on their practices. I was a member of the Salvation Army for years if I state that to a lot of people they automatically think that I hate a lot of different people. Without them understanding that not everyone who was or is a member shares the same views, not every church is perfect. I think that the current pope understands this, that no place is perfect, but that does not mean that one can not try to be in terms of helping those in need. I enjoyed being a member of SA because of the people that were helped, as that is what Booth wanted more than anything else in the world, to help those who was left out, because of where they were at in society. I think that if Booth had found out just what has happened to his church, he would not be a happy person, because he welcomed all into the folks of the SA, many of the old songs sung in the churches are old pub/travel tunes.
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Orea
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Postby Orea » Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:52 pm

It seems like a small drop in a pretty big ocean to me. In France though, the clergy is still protecting the pedophiles within its ranks. There was a recent scandal involving an Archbishop here, victims have banded together in an association to denounce him and encourage others to speak their truth. The hierarchy though, still covering its own asses... When the Catholic Church doesn't surprise you.

That's for the institution, anyway. As for the Pope, he seems to be quite an improvement compared to those who came before, at least in my lifetime. I remember reading his second Encyclical Letter, Laudato Si' for my thesis and that text was amazing. The analysis of the climate crisis and the role capitalist societies play in it, beautifully explained.

There you have it :
http://w2.vatican.va/content/dam/francesco/pdf/encyclicals/documents/papa-francesco_20150524_enciclica-laudato-si_en.pdf
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Postby Brewtality » Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:12 pm

I'm with Orea. It's nothing. It's just empty words. The Catholic Church is the embodiment of outdated, medieval thinking. No matter what anyone says - even the Pope - there is much, much more going on behind the scenes than you could even dream of. You think the mafia is bad? You think Al-Qaeda is bad? You think any government in the world is bad? The Catholic Church has been around longer than any of them. They have their fingers in so many pies it's incredible.

Did Francis say that whilst claiming Papal Infallibility? i.e. is what he said now doctrine which has been communicated through the Holy Spirit or is it just the opinion of the Pope as a man? It appears not so it seems more of a desperation move to me than anything. They've accepted that they will have to tolerate certain things which have become normal in civilised Western society if they are to stand any chance of maintaining some kind of support in Europe and the USA but don't think that those men in the Vatican have in any way changed their views.
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Corgimom
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Postby Corgimom » Sun Jun 12, 2016 4:58 pm

Skywalker wrote:Back on topic, at least the church is trying.


I think the church is trying to clean up it's image without actually changing. I do kinda like the Pope- he says the right things but change is about doing- not talking.

I'm pretty sure that 'the church' would still prefer to be above the laws of man and burning folks at the stake.
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Brewtality
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Postby Brewtality » Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:21 pm

Corgimom wrote:
I think the church is trying to clean up it's image without actually changing. I do kind like the Pope- he says the right things but change is about doing- not talking.

I'm pretty sure that 'the church' would still prefer to be above the laws of man and burning folks at the stake.


And there, you wrote in two sentences what I wanted - but failed - to write in two paragraphs :)
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Postby Feydakin » Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:30 pm

Brewtality wrote:
Corgimom wrote:
I think the church is trying to clean up it's image without actually changing. I do kind like the Pope- he says the right things but change is about doing- not talking.

I'm pretty sure that 'the church' would still prefer to be above the laws of man and burning folks at the stake.


And there, you wrote in two sentences what I wanted - but failed - to write in two paragraphs :)


Yeah pretty much what Corgi said... I would love to believe that the Catholic church has, can or will change, but 2000 years of history is telling me it's not going to happen with one pontiff change, if ever.
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Re: The

Postby ink » Thu Jan 19, 2017 1:49 am

my apologies to those who are catholic, as my intentions are not to offend, but catholicism has been infiltrated by paganism and the occult and prophesy is being fulfilled, even at this moment. thats about all i will speak on without stepping on toes, the rest is out there and available upon research for those who are so inclined
we are, what we allow to occupy us..





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Re: The

Postby NaranjaRa » Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:56 am

ink wrote:my apologies to those who are catholic, as my intentions are not to offend, but catholicism has been infiltrated by paganism and the occult and prophesy is being fulfilled, even at this moment. thats about all i will speak on without stepping on toes, the rest is out there and available upon research for those who are so inclined


don't forget the fact they are in essence the largest evil pedophile ring in the world
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Re: The

Postby DJ_Darkside » Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:15 am

Ok so you should all know my religious by now, if not well let's just say I'm no devout Catholic. I am however, on paper, a confirmed Catholic. My parents put me through the whole Sunday School thing and I graduated. Saying this I think that we are looking at a wide vague picture here. The Catholic church has done so much to help me through the years. On a local level the church is a great thing for Catholic communities! I can't even count the times I went to church begging for food only to be given a voucher for $100 at a local grocery store! Someone like me can actually still claim sanctuary at a local church and be greeted with open arms and a bed to sleep in! Now churches differ wildly depending on where you're located but love and acceptance has always been a tradition where I have been. I know, I know there are a lot of things that aren't quite right and a bunch of bad apples ruined a lot of it. I also see nothing when I look into the Pope's soul-less eyes and there probably is a much bigger agenda bent on enslaving the world but hasn't that always been the case? This is nothing new.

Diss religion all you want but I stand firm in saying that the Church has always been a staple of togetherness in communities and we shouldn't be so quick to generalize.
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Re: The

Postby NaranjaRa » Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:37 am

i was also raised Catholic....come from a huge Catholic family, was baptized into the church and spent many a Sunday kneeling to droning organ music.
on a community / individual level, i have no problem with the good it does for people, even though i truly believe if we as humankind can dump all the dogma that was created by men to rule over other men, we'd be doing much better spiritually as a species

but the institution of the Roman Catholic Church itself...
evil.

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