Silencing of opposing views

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Neon Samurai
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Postby Neon Samurai » Mon Apr 25, 2016 2:13 pm

Well isn't this lovely. I disagree often with the posts on FB. I try and be respectful and never use harsh language or make ad hominem attacks against those I disagree with. I try and present facts when I have them easily available. I was even specifically asked by Phara to join these forums for that very reason (even though she admitted that we agree about almost nothing.)

Today I questioned a post about rape statistics in a meme, I typed a response using a twenty year Department of Justice study (by two female statisticians I might add) to refute one point in the meme, thus exemplifying where citations of the information presented could be viewed and examined (i.e. if one statistic is fundamentally wrong, then it calls the other figures into question) As I tried to post my response I found that my ability to comment had been blocked page wide. This is a tactic that has become far to common in public discourse, not to discuss differences of ideas in a public forum, but to silence the opposition. This is fundamentally an illiberal idea. The proper method is to discuss the issue, and let the better idea triumph. But to wholesale reject any idea that is in opposition to the preferred narrative only creates echo chambers that do not foster healthy discourse. By limiting my ability to present quantifiable data that supports my assertions, while providing none of your own, does not make your idea more correct. In fact it weakens your argument as it presents the public with a perception that your idea can not handle scrutiny. Present your data, present your studies, present your research and I will do the same. In the end, one idea will be more supportable and will result triumphant. But this rejection of intellectual debate because it does not align with your personally held beliefs is authoritarian and the path to fascism. A population does not care if it is a left leaning fascism or a right leaning fascism when they are under its control. Many people on the left, the right, and in the middle are all shocked by the rise of this anti-intellectualism that has risen over the last few years in regard to social issues. It is a dangerous and troubling trend that needs to cease. It is the utter rejection of the concepts of logic and reason, concepts fundamental to a free society.
"It is difficult to fight against anger, for a man will buy revenge with his soul"--Heraclites
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Pawly
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Postby Pawly » Mon Apr 25, 2016 3:48 pm

Welcome Neon. We can have great debates here if you follow our simple rules http://ninjaevolution.net/forums/viewtopic.php?id=431 Please make an Introduction thread so we can get to know you a little and I hope you get involved in our Culture and Debate section.
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Postby ink » Mon Apr 25, 2016 3:49 pm

right on then, culture and debate might be right up your alley.. welcome to ninja!
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Phara
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Postby Phara » Mon Apr 25, 2016 4:14 pm

I assume you're Barry. About goddamn time you showed up here. FaceBook is infuriating. I don't care that I silenced your ass there. This is where we debate. That is where we fuckin spew anger. Think of it as Ninja Main for now, FB that is. Y'all could not talk on Ninja Main, but you could come into the Forum and properly debate. I like that it took my banning you for you to finally make your way to my boards. Sigh.
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Neon Samurai
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Postby Neon Samurai » Mon Apr 25, 2016 4:20 pm

Actually it was the NV FB page. That is why I brought my disagreement here. As I told Phara, The brevity of FB works for my schedule. I know if I get deep here, I will get no research or work done as I will spend far too much time in the plethora of topics (which is why I seldom go to sites like Wikipedia as I know how I am. I go for a quick death date and end up reading about 12th century Russian monasticism which has nothing to do with my body of research.) Nothing against here, but it is for my own productivity. As the spring semester is winding down and the summer offers much more freedom (sometimes too much), I have been looking forward to finding one or two threads to engage in, but for now FB is the only place I can discuss and still get work done.

But to address the initial post, isn't the limiting of dissenting facts limiting those who may see the posts but not be on here, such as myself, from receiving the full picture of the issue at hand? When only a skewed perspective is given without the dissenting opinion presenting the facts of its case it is the antithesis of rationality. Now a comment, as you have used before of "Move this to the boards" is fine. That then becomes my decision to continue or not. But to limit the presentation of pertinent data does not present a complete picture but then only becomes propaganda. That is what I am railing against in many of my comments. Even if I find the premise of the post sound, if it is presented in a non-factual way then I feel the obligation to at least provide a dissent.
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Pawly
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Postby Pawly » Mon Apr 25, 2016 4:27 pm

Hmmmmm. You probably deserved it if Phara banned you. We prefer out debates here. FB is for people with the attention span of fruit flies.

As to your question, of course you can dissent and we can enforce what we want on our FB page. Like it or not that's the way it is. We have no obligation to give every voice a platform.
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Neon Samurai
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Postby Neon Samurai » Mon Apr 25, 2016 4:41 pm

I concur with it being the right of the page owner. Yet, my question comes from a state of responsibility. If, let's say such as the sexual assault meme, if I have quantifiable research that refutes a claim, isn't the responsible thing to present that to promote truth rather than ideology? Do the ends justify the means? which is a stronger supporter, the ignorantly moral or those who support with informed agreement? To me it is an immoral proposition to sway an audience based on false information no matter how valid the principle underlying the cause.
"It is difficult to fight against anger, for a man will buy revenge with his soul"--Heraclites
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Corgimom
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Postby Corgimom » Mon Apr 25, 2016 5:17 pm

Hi Neon, I'm a 62 year old lesbian who rescues corgis, works from home as a computer nerd with some high demand specific skills and a pretty fair education in a number of areas.

I was on the old board having joined very early. I think I introduced myself and lurked for a few months and what I saw were people who are driven to share more than 3 lines of 1/4 column text at a time. All kinds of people, left right and center have always been welcome. The day Phara decided to get a forum set up she asked in a small group chat for someone to talk her through getting the domain set up and hosted and here we are. I do not even know how many members Ninja forums had at it's peak but we were a machine of ideas, concepts, points of view and actual creative projects from many folk.

I promise to follow you and be civil in culture and debate. I think you underline something in your reason for posting- I am glad an incorrect meme brought you to our doors.
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Phara
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Postby Phara » Mon Apr 25, 2016 5:37 pm

[1:36:24 PM] Phara: good one from fb
[1:36:54 PM] Phara: and someone explain to barry?/neon samurai that while we get the whole brevity thing for him, it just doesn't work for us. but for real, welcome to the boards. much love. fuck it i'll just cnp.
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Corgimom
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Postby Corgimom » Mon Apr 25, 2016 5:55 pm

Yea we'll give ninja related titles to folk occasionally so the Neon Samurai is a bad choice. Need to think of another one personally from what I see so far I'd say Riking - the words viking and right had a baby- but let us know if you need help.
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Neon Samurai
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Postby Neon Samurai » Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:03 pm

I love corgis!!!!!

Wow, I was part of an internal chat discussion. Now my curiosity will wonder what was said. I think it all stems from being a public academic. My work is to present the as much of the picture as we are able to discern to the public so that they can be informed (I am an historian.) While there is certainly many an historian who lets their ideology shine (Markus Rediker would be excellent if he didn't beat you over the head with Marxism) but our ultimate goal is to identify and remove our bias from the presentation. So, it is kind of part of who I am and what I do, and also the lens through I examine public discourse. Thus any time any of the posts of FB held misleading information, I felt it my duty and obligation to present a balanced approach. This is why MSNBC is no better than Fox News, neither place their bias aside, and then you have Glen Greenwald saying that it is deplorable to expect journalism to be objective. I read that and was like WTF!!! So if I regularly pissed you off on FB, understand it was to give the reader a real "Fair and balanced" look at the topic so they could make informed decisions. As I have said, there are damn few issues that can be simplified by a meme. And while it may present the persons ideology, it is seldom an accurate depiction of the issue. (Just so you know I do the same to the people I know who post crap on the right, the only ones I delete are the willfully ignorant like "God told me not to vaccinate my kids." yes that happened.)

So thanks for the welcomes, and expect where I decide to tread to be likely the opposite, but even if you disagree with my conclusions, it will be from a place I reasoned out and not from some ideology talking point.
"It is difficult to fight against anger, for a man will buy revenge with his soul"--Heraclites
Neon Samurai
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Postby Neon Samurai » Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:05 pm

Well that has been my handle since the BBS days in the late 80s, so I have kind of grown attached to it in the last 25+ years.
"It is difficult to fight against anger, for a man will buy revenge with his soul"--Heraclites
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girlapaloo
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Postby girlapaloo » Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:38 pm

Hi Neon Samurai :)
Welcome!
I have seen, too often, exactly what you described happening on Facebook. I am usually of few words, so I hardly comment anywhere on my fb account. My man though, often tries to engage in conversation when he sees a debatable post. He's very learned, intelligent, and respectful. The usual response is vehement stonewalling, scapegoating and then blocking him from commenting further. The rudeness and disregard for logic is sickening. Once in a blue moon, he gets a message from someone thanking him for simply stating the truth. :)

I'd say this thread definitely is Intro-worthy!
Glad to have you here.
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PhlawlessPhelon
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Postby PhlawlessPhelon » Tue Apr 26, 2016 12:45 am

You should do a brief intro, and take it to C&D. I imagine it'd be a great thread.

I would like a link to the DoJ study you reference if you could provide it.
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Neon Samurai
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Postby Neon Samurai » Tue Apr 26, 2016 1:32 am

Didn't see a thread in C&D that was for this. I don't think I am ready to kick that hornets nest just yet, let me get some street cred first. Here is the report and I was mistaken, it was a female statistician and a female statistician intern.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rsavcaf9513.pdf

Page one. Bullet point number one. "The rate of rape and sexual assault was 1.2 times higher
for nonstudents (7.6 per 1,000) than for students (6.1 per
1,000)."
"It is difficult to fight against anger, for a man will buy revenge with his soul"--Heraclites
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PhlawlessPhelon
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Postby PhlawlessPhelon » Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:34 am

Oh, you would just have to make the thread, or we can move this thread there (im not sure how to do the fancy mod stuff like that). Also, I wouldn't be scared. I would just link a pic of the meme(or copy/paste the info from the meme, whatever you find easier), followed by your arguments against the meme's information. Any hostility you may have sensed on FB is likely just because FB is a horrible platform for intelligent debate, so we'd rather usher people to the forums. You made it this far and no one has ripped into you or censored you. We disagree often here, but things remain fun and civil. Heck, you already got me to read a boring DoJ/BJS report.

Also, thanks for the link. I was able to find it without the link, but I wanted to make sure I had the right paper.

I have input I could add if this was in the C&D section, but I'd rather wait to see if it happens.

Neon Samurai wrote:it was a female statistician and a female statistician intern.


Intern at BJS typically just means graduate student or someone with a B.A.. I looked her up she has a BA with a lot of research/statistical training. It was a summer internship.
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Neon Samurai
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Postby Neon Samurai » Tue Apr 26, 2016 3:10 am

I will move it there in the morning. Oh trust me, I know you are not going to get a BJS internship without the chops, but I wanted to clarify my earlier statement so I was not construed as misrepresenting the source material.
"It is difficult to fight against anger, for a man will buy revenge with his soul"--Heraclites
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Phara
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Postby Phara » Tue Apr 26, 2016 3:42 am

:)

so much better. i fuckin hate fb.
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PhlawlessPhelon
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Postby PhlawlessPhelon » Tue Apr 26, 2016 3:47 am

All good, BJS stats are just univariate/bivariate reports, but they are the best source for official stats on this specific topic (crime related). I'll go into more detail when we get an official thread, because this thread is about silencing opinions.

On that note, I feel like we don't have an issue with that. People get banned on FB when they keep debating on FB and dont register on Ninja. You made it to ninja so I think you'll notice a difference between here and FB.
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Phara
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Postby Phara » Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:45 am

PhlawlessPhelon wrote:On that note, I feel like we don't have an issue with that. People get banned on FB when they keep debating on FB and dont register on Ninja. You made it to ninja so I think you'll notice a difference between here and FB.

word with your sexy ass.

//pets
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Rwn
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Postby Rwn » Tue Apr 26, 2016 12:09 pm

Man this seriously belongs as a C&D post
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AliceElite
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Postby AliceElite » Tue Apr 26, 2016 12:43 pm

I agree that the 'silencing of viewpoints' is a topic that needs to be in C&D.

That said, I look forward to your introduction and having debates with you.
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Pawly
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Postby Pawly » Tue Apr 26, 2016 3:44 pm

moved it is. continue
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cerrodepedro
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Postby cerrodepedro » Thu May 12, 2016 2:07 am

I think there comes a point where general adversarial behavior forms a pattern. The example in this case was a meme citing some very generalized, un-cited statistics on rapists themselves. Certainly, accuracy is important. It is. A statistic by definition is a mere estimation of variation. Especially where rape consistently proves itself as an under-reported phenomenon, acknowledging how approximate and hard-to-sample the data can be is intellectually honest. The "narrative" being pushed here was that overwhelmingly, rape happens most frequently where men have the most power over women. That's why you see family members dominating statistics as perpetrators.

A common tactic used by men's rights activists, AKA misogynists, AKA people who would sexually assault women as often as it were adequately convenient, is to DERAIL. Someone posts a meme with some scientific deficiencies with the intent of highlighting that in general, most of the perpetrators of rape are getting the least attention, the least blame, and that the demographics to which they belong are being expected to give very low accountability compared to demographics that per capita sport much fewer perpetrators. In this case we were talking about how ridiculous it is that trans women and those who look like them (cross-dressing men) are perceived as a MUCH greater threat than they actually are to commit sexual assault.

Instead of saying "okay here are problems I have with the meme, and here is what I have to say about the actual issue," Neon Samurai's entire focus was on discrediting the meme. That was it. A tiny bit of lip service was given to the point of the original post (Was it mine? I think it was mine.), but the focus of Neon Samurai's contributions was squarely on the spuriousness of the statistics cited, which were not all that spurious. They then went on to try to start a discussion about the general uselessness of memes. In other words, the actual issue ("oppressed groups get scapegoated for rape while the groups with the highest incidences of perpetrators per capita are essentially given a free pass") was not squarely discussed.

Even if Neon Samurai came out and said "well actually I think cisgender men just don't rape as much as trans men and cross-dressing do" that would have been less fucked up, even if it was an erroneous assertion, but instead it was just derailing. "I don't feel comfortable addressing the real topic so I'll do a meta-analysis instead and come off calm, cool, collected, and way less emotional than these meme-farting saps."

Neon Samurai, this is me calling you out. If I've misconstrued your intentions, tear that shit down. If I haven't, well, bam, here we are. Ad hominem isn't entirely fallacious.
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Phara
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Postby Phara » Thu May 12, 2016 2:10 am

^^holy fuck. THIS.
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