Zack Snyder & Why WB Needs to Take Him off JLA

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Postby Feydakin » Tue May 03, 2016 2:13 am

I want to talk about Zach Snyder, his superhero movies and why I hate them... I don't have time to get into it now, but I wanted to give others a chance to chime in. This article and the previous one that it references sum up pretty well the problems I have with Snyder and his "vision"...

http://www.vox.com/2016/5/2/11565932/zack-snyder-justice-league
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Postby Brewtality » Wed May 04, 2016 8:39 pm

Not read the article because it's late. But for me, Zack Snyder is a purely visual filmmaker. That could be a good thing but it just isn't. He has a great eye for a shot but he's completely useless with a story. He just has no idea what he's doing. 300 is his quintessential film. It is completely style over substance and whilst plenty of people I know loved that film, I thought it was terrible. It looked so cheesy and the dialogue, acting and just about everything in there was just dripping in cheesy shit. That Man of Steel film he made was so incredibly boring as to be ridiculous. That big fight scene at the end was a massive snoozefest. Watchmen looked like he'd just chosen the coolest panels from the comic and built his entire film around them rather than focusing on what made the comic a classic in the first place - yup, you guessed it: the story!

I wouldn't let him direct another film full-stop, never mind the Justice League!
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Postby Rivoc » Thu May 05, 2016 6:14 am

i loved 300, and I really enjoyed Sucker Punch. I thoguht Batman v Superman was just ok, but i was entertained enough to walk out happy, althoguh I can see why others would not.

To me, his movies come out more like an anime than a traditional movie. at least 300 and Sucker Punch. My other thing is, most people are dumb. Half the people I went to see batman v superman couldnt follow it and were asking "what just happened? why is this happening? what did that mean?" i find that really annoying when im trying to enjoy a movie. Same people that couldnt follow Inception. I hope im not offending anyone with these words.

Im not saying Snyders movies are brilliant or even complicated, but i know sucker punch wasnt for everyone, 300 was mostly enjoyed by all, and batman v superman is entirely split. I think hes just more of a unique director and an acquired taste that sint for everyone. the more i find out, the more i think most peeps prob have a love it or hate it attitude toward him/his movies.

hes just.....different. not really in a particular good or bad way. if youre not happy with more visuals than storytelling, i think most will lean toward the hate it side. i kind of like it for what it is. i wouldnt consider myself a big fan, since I just learned his name from batman v superman, but i did enjoy 300 and sucker punch a lot. i just looked at them as if they were an anime and they made so much more sense to me, breaking that mold traditional movies tend to follow.
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Postby Feydakin » Thu May 05, 2016 4:41 pm

Let Snyder do his own thing, but don't put him in charge of beloved, 70 plus year old characters and stories... I enjoy his movies for what they are, quite a bit actually. I will defend his style to the death when he's doing his own shit. However here he's just shitting on decades of lore and fandom by just doing his own thing with them, and making Superman diametrically opposed to who he's supposed to be. Simply because he doesn't like the way they are portrayed, and there isn't enough blood and sex? No, it doesn't need to change, it's not OK for it to change... Superman AND Batman are the way they are for a reason, and have been for far too long to be screwed with. Like I've said before about stories like this; Sometimes a thing is just too sacred to be fucked with.
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Postby Rivoc » Fri May 06, 2016 5:12 am

Feydakin wrote:Let Snyder do his own thing, but don't put him in charge of beloved, 70 plus year old characters and stories... I enjoy his movies for what they are, quite a bit actually. I will defend his style to the death when he's doing his own shit. However here he's just shitting on decades of lore and fandom by just doing his own thing with them, and making Superman diametrically opposed to who he's supposed to be. Simply because he doesn't like the way they are portrayed, and there isn't enough blood and sex? No, it doesn't need to change, it's not OK for it to change... Superman AND Batman are the way they are for a reason, and have been for far too long to be screwed with. Like I've said before about stories like this; Sometimes a thing is just too sacred to be fucked with.


I can't argue with any of that. All of your points are valid and I agree with all of them. The only thing I can think of would be comparing the old Vatman tv series of the 70's to the Batman of now that we all know and love. Someone had to change that somewhere down the line to get it as gritty as it is today.

But I can't argue against your logic of it doesn't need more sex and blood. NORBALLY I'm all over more sex and blood, WHEN ITS DONE RIGHT and adds to the element of the story, characters, and world.

I.e. - Game of Thrones. Blood and sex add to the characters and the dark world and dark stories told.

High School of the Dead - Anime - I felt was TOTALKY RUINED by all the needless sex and fan service. RUINED!!!!
It was so dark and human and real in so many, many scenes, only to negate that mood by having ridiculous and needless butt/panty/bouncy boob shots. These things have their place, and it sure as hell shouldn't be a very real, scary, harsh reality of human nature and survival situations.

I can't imagine a batman story or universe being heightened with sex and nudity. I just can't. And I can't agree that's what it needs, since it's been done so well so many tines before without such things.

I love tits and a nice ass just as much, or more, than the next guy. But I don't need it where it doesn't belong thrown in just to capture attention. If it doesn't add depth to the story, character, world, or plot, "it" probably doesn't belong, no matter what you quantify as "it", in this case "it" is sex and blood.
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Postby Feydakin » Fri May 06, 2016 6:22 pm

Batman is supposed to be dark and gritty, it's his shtick, so I'm totally fine with that. He's a damaged, complicated human being. I think that that part of the movie stands up reasonably well. Although I think he made Batman look a little stupid and Batman is absolutely not stupid, he's "The Worlds Greatest Detective". The best part of the movie surprisingly was Affleck's Bruce Wayne/Batman...
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Postby Rivoc » Fri May 06, 2016 6:30 pm

I agree 100%. Sad Affleck is still a hell of a funny YouTube vid.
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Postby NaranjaRa » Sat May 07, 2016 3:33 am

SNYDER IS A MUSIC VIDEO DIRECTOR. he's not a film director no matter how many he gets contracted to do.

the ONLY exception in my eyes is Legend of the Guardians: The Owls of Gahoole
and it's animated

i TOTALLY *get* he has "a vision"....a super-stylized one, but sure, he's all about the visuals. which would be AWESOME if he was as great at moving a sensible plot along and creating action scenes where you can actually tell what's going on as he is making things hyper-pretty. he is the walking definition of all style, no substance.

are his films entertaining? depends on your own definition. sure i enjoy 300, but only as silly eye-candy. Watchmen is the only one of his superhero flicks that i can get into, but that might just be the love of the material and if i was to rewatch it i'd likely pick it to hell.

the worst have definitely been the Superman flicks, though. the first one made me so angry with SHIT THAT DIDN'T MAKE ANY SENSE i would have walked out in the theater, and actually DID shut it down about halfway through.

the JLA movies i fear will be the same giant style-vomits, complete with little character development, horrible editing, nonsensical visual motifs, and horrible, horrible action sequences. ugh....
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Postby Rivoc » Sat May 07, 2016 7:38 pm

NaranjaRa wrote:SNYDER IS A MUSIC VIDEO DIRECTOR. he's not a film director no matter how many he gets contracted to do.

the ONLY exception in my eyes is Legend of the Guardians: The Owls of Gahoole
and it's animated

i TOTALLY *get* he has "a vision"....a super-stylized one, but sure, he's all about the visuals. which would be AWESOME if he was as great at moving a sensible plot along and creating action scenes where you can actually tell what's going on as he is making things hyper-pretty. he is the walking definition of all style, no substance.

are his films entertaining? depends on your own definition. sure i enjoy 300, but only as silly eye-candy. Watchmen is the only one of his superhero flicks that i can get into, but that might just be the love of the material and if i was to rewatch it i'd likely pick it to hell.

the worst have definitely been the Superman flicks, though. the first one made me so angry with SHIT THAT DIDN'T MAKE ANY SENSE i would have walked out in the theater, and actually DID shut it down about halfway through.

the JLA movies i fear will be the same giant style-vomits, complete with little character development, horrible editing, nonsensical visual motifs, and horrible, horrible action sequences. ugh....


Did you watch Sucker Punch? As far as I know, I'm in the 5% bracket of people that enjoyed it.
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Postby Feydakin » Thu May 19, 2016 3:18 am

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Postby Skywalker » Thu May 19, 2016 3:21 am

Let just put it this way, I have gone to the theater to see many a Batman movie, but not this one. I have seen the Cloney Batman movie in a theater! Dear God WhY?!

I am not a fan of the way that WB is currently taking The Bats or Superman. I do enjoy watching the aminated movies, which I guess I'll have to stick to because it will be a cold day in hell before they get a dime of my money. Now if HBO, EPIX or some other random cable channel that I pay out the ass for decides to play it then I'll toss it on as background noise.
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Postby Feydakin » Thu May 19, 2016 3:35 pm

New DCEU head Geoff Johns agrees with us and is looking to right the ship... thank the fucking gods.

http://moviepilot.com/posts/3921975?utm_source=fb-channel-superheroes&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=new-head-of-dc-films-geoff-johns-hears-fans-loud-and-clear

"Johns met with a handful of journalists today, and while he refused to speak on why the shake-up occurred ("you can connect the dots," was all he told journalists), he gladly shared his vision for the future of DC Films. A common refrain from Johns was that they aimed to bring more "hope and optimism" to the DCEU, according to Vulture, who was there for the conversation with Johns.

To this point, Snyder has had almost total control over the building and tone of the DCEU. Love him or hate him, what's unable to be argued is that Snyder has a very distinct aesthetic for the DCEU, and that aesthetic is dark as hell. This in and of itself isn't necessarily an issue; the problem is that, in making his universe unilaterally dark, many fans believe Snyder has failed to grasp the essence of DC's characters, most notably Superman.

And while Johns was very careful not to point fingers, he went on to make a statement that indicates he, just like fans, believes the way in which Superman has been handled hasn't necessarily been truthful to the spirit of the character:

“I think people make a mistake when they say, ‘Superman’s not relatable because he’s so powerful. I’m like, ‘Are you kidding me? He’s a farmboy from Kansas who moves to the city and just wants to do the best he can with what he’s got.’ That’s the most relatable character in the world."

If all of this means that future iterations of Superman will be allowed to be lighter and more hopeful, then count me in 110 percent. Batman v Superman's portrayal of Clark Kent/Superman as a brooding, joyless character only truly roused to action when those he personally cared about were in danger was truly frustrating. Superman has always been about hope; a beacon of good in the same vein as Captain America, the light to Batman's dark. While that was somewhat captured in Man of Steel, Batman v Superman absolutely undid that notion, and fans were largely unhappy with it.

I'm not going to speculate here on what, exactly, has been going on behind the scenes at Warner Bros., but with this move, it's clear that WB no longer feels comfortable letting Snyder run the show without having some creative oversight above him. I've long argued that you can change storylines as long as you remain true to the spirit of the characters, and there is no-one better equipped to do justice to the characters than Johns. In one move, Warner Bros. has addressed the major issue with the DCEU and showed that it has heard fans, loud and clear. With his first statements regarding his new role, Johns has proven that the characters we love are now in the best possible hands — his. "

This makes me so happy... so happy. I just hope it pans out in the best way possible. ;)
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Postby NaranjaRa » Thu May 26, 2016 10:24 am

100% excellent news

that's also been a huge issue for me. HE MADE SUPERMAN DARK FFS. he won't set aside his own "vision as an artist" and be true to the material. that's unprofessional imo. therefore, he deserves to be fired.
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Postby Brewtality » Thu May 26, 2016 10:38 am

Great news. So far, in terms of trying to emulate what Marvel have done, DC have dropped the ball completely. The Marvel films have done so well because they have been FUN. They have only deviated from the comicbook versions of the characters when necessary, and even then, the core of those characters is unmistakably intact. The Marvel films are bright and witty and have incredible large-scale action scenes which look great on the big screen and have enough character moments to stop them from becoming boring. The Nolan Batman films were realistic and gritty and dark and tough and personal and they worked well. The Snyder stuff seems like a really poor attempt to squeeze anything together which falls flat on its face. That Man of Steel film was painful. The first half-or-so was fine with Superman being a bit butthurt and slunking off to sort his shit out. But then it just turned into Transformers and it was CRASH! BANG! WALLOP! for far, far too long and I was soooooo incredibly bored. Plus, it looked like shit. He's done it again wth BvS:DOJ.

The Suicide Squad looks like it could be a lot of fun and I hope that's a sign of things to come. Good riddance to Snyder. That's 3 Superman films in a row which have stunk the gaff out so obviously the studio should take a lot of flak for that.
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Postby NaranjaRa » Sat May 28, 2016 11:47 am

Brewtality wrote:Great news. So far, in terms of trying to emulate what Marvel have done, DC have dropped the ball completely. The Marvel films have done so well because they have been FUN. They have only deviated from the comicbook versions of the characters when necessary, and even then, the core of those characters is unmistakably intact. The Marvel films are bright and witty and have incredible large-scale action scenes which look great on the big screen and have enough character moments to stop them from becoming boring. The Nolan Batman films were realistic and gritty and dark and tough and personal and they worked well. The Snyder stuff seems like a really poor attempt to squeeze anything together which falls flat on its face. That Man of Steel film was painful. The first half-or-so was fine with Superman being a bit butthurt and slunking off to sort his shit out. But then it just turned into Transformers and it was CRASH! BANG! WALLOP! for far, far too long and I was soooooo incredibly bored. Plus, it looked like shit. He's done it again wth BvS:DOJ.

The Suicide Squad looks like it could be a lot of fun and I hope that's a sign of things to come. Good riddance to Snyder. That's 3 Superman films in a row which have stunk the gaff out so obviously the studio should take a lot of flak for that.


well said. and yeah it's like, ever since the Nolan flicks all of their movies have stayed on the "dark side"...i don't know if that is Snyder trying to emulate what Nolan did in some way or what, but it is hopefully going to be a refreshing change for the DC movies here on out.
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Postby Brewtality » Sun May 29, 2016 1:32 pm

We can only hope! It's interesting how Civil War and BvS essentially deal with the same basic premise: good guys on the same side fighting over some deeply-held ideological belief. BvS went all dark and rainy and night-fighty and overly-serious and was rubbish. Civil War has a big fight scene outside in the sunshine in a nice big open area and featured some really funny moments. Suicide Squad looks like it's going to be funny though so maybe that'll be the shape of things to come.
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Postby Feydakin » Tue Jun 21, 2016 4:07 pm

Visitors to the JLA movie set were treated to, among other things, a sneak preview of a scene with Bruce Wayne and Barry Allen. Here is the scene breakdown!

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JUSTICE LEAGUE - FLASH & BATMAN SCENE DESCRIPTION!!

The scene follows Ezra Miller as Barry Allen, entering an abandoned brick building with lots of colorful graffiti which he has co-opted for his home. He turns on the power and his apartment lights up with tons of computer monitors all over the place. The light reveals Ben Affleck as Bruce Wayne sitting in a chair.

“Barry Allen, Bruce Wayne.”

“You said that like it explains why there’s a total stranger in my place sitting in my second favorite chair,” quips Allen.

“Tell me about this…” Wayne presents Allen a printout showing the security footage of Allen which was retrieved from Lex Luthor’s hard drive in Batman v Superman. Allen looks at the paper incredulously.

“This is… uhh… a person who looks exactly like me but is definitely not me. Somebody, hippy, long hair. Very attractive Jewish boy… who drinks milk. I don’t drink milk.”

Wayne is not amused. “I know you have abilities, I just don’t know what they are…”

Allen quips, “My special skills include viola, web design, fluent in sign language, gorilla sign language…”

Wayne has stopped listening and is admiring Allen’s prototype Flash costume which is in the middle of the room.

Looking closer at the Flash suit, Wayne notices its made of “silicon base and quartz fabric, heat resistant.”

Allen tries to explain what the superhero costume is for: “Yeah, I also do ice dancing.”

“They use it on the space shuttle to keep it from burning up on reentry,” comments Wayne.

Barry responds that the suit is for “very competitive ice dancing.” Barry turns and continues, “Look man, I don’t know who you are but whoever you’re looking for is not me.”

While Barry is turned, Bruce Wayne takes the opening to chuck a Batarang at the young superhero. Almost instantly time slows down and we are engulfed into Barry Allen’s world of slow-motion as he dodges the incoming weapon and notices that it’s a metal throwing star in the form of the Batman logo. He reaches out and grabs it, catching it.

We transition into real time as Barry looks at Bruce, “You’re the Batman?

Bruce now understands, “So you’re fast?”

Barry remarks, “That feels like an over simplification.”

Bruce is not amused, so he gets to the point: “I’m putting together a team, people with special abilities. You see, I believe enemies are coming…”

Allen interrupts him, “Stop right there, I’m in!”

Wayne surprised, “Just like that?”

“Yeah,” responds Allen, taking a few seconds to admit, “I need friends.”

“Great,” says Wayne relieved.

Barry still looking at the Batarang, “Can I keep this?”

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One of my main gripes with The CW's Barry Allen was that he's too mature, too emo some of the time and definitely isn't enough of a smartass. This scene seems to point towards a more comic book version of Barry Allen. ;)
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