The Business of Art

Artist? Photographer? Editor? Find a home here. Post your work, offer advice, give your opinion, and just discuss in general.
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NaranjaRa
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The Business of Art

Postby NaranjaRa » Sat Oct 08, 2016 11:55 am

discuss the professional side of art, design, photography, web design, etc.

  • how to make a living from your creative work
  • contracts
  • pricing
  • get advice
  • share experiences

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[11:18:17 AM] z0mbie: Meeting my first client in like 2 hours.. I just know he's gunna be a dick
[11:19:18 AM] ink: charisma
[11:19:21 AM] z0mbie: Attitude on the phone was soo wired for a first call .. but .. I need it?
[11:19:48 AM] ink: lol with the ?
[11:20:47 AM] z0mbie: I'm tempted like give him the benefit of the doubt but if I get a sign that he's a fucktard I'm out.. why I left employment
[11:21:19 AM] z0mbie: But history is almost making me not wanna go
[11:21:40 AM] ink: yea but you have to change it..
[11:21:53 AM] ink: otherwise insanity
[11:22:25 AM] ink: yesterday, a guy emailed me about the Miguel Cabrera painting...
[11:22:38 AM] ink: I'm pretty sure he was trying to negotiate
[11:22:52 AM] ink: but I think I handled it kind of cold
[11:23:36 AM] z0mbie: That's what he was doing.. like I don't talk prices I ask what you want then ask for a budget and work around it
[11:23:48 AM] ink: dude asked me the price.. I told him 650. he said it was way out of his price range. so I just said, no problem.. I understand. peace
[11:23:54 AM] ink: (rofl)
[11:24:01 AM] z0mbie: He never worked like that in 39 years of business
[11:24:20 AM] z0mbie: Did you design your home page? Err yea
[11:24:26 AM] z0mbie: Not very enticing
[11:24:38 AM] ink: lol
[11:24:39 AM] z0mbie: Stfu were talking bout you bitch
[11:25:06 AM] ink: maybe we were not meant to settle..
[11:25:10 AM] z0mbie: What the price?? Huh I've explained what we do
[11:25:34 AM] z0mbie: I know but.. it's an in
[11:25:53 AM] ink: yea I thought about that too
[11:25:58 AM] z0mbie: And I think that's worth to me more than a site is worth to him
[11:28:23 AM] ink: i feel like this.. if dude emails me back and wants to negotiate proper-like, i will
[11:28:51 AM] ink: but don't say how much is that painting? and then say that's way out of my price range
[11:29:16 AM] ink: (angry)
[11:30:30 AM] z0mbie: Live by a rule if you have to ask how much .. you can't afford it
[11:31:23 AM] ink: yep, and then.. crickets
[11:31:50 AM] ink: idk.. maybe I'm looking at it wrong. maybe i shouldn't get offended
[11:32:02 AM | Edited 11:32:13 AM] z0mbie: So easy to though
[11:32:23 AM] ink: yea
[11:34:40 AM] Phara: It's very tricky in the art world
[11:35:27 AM] ink: im beginning to experience the reality of that
[11:35:43 AM] Phara: Because I have to ask that question but I do everything with artists in the most grateful tone
[11:35:47 AM] ink: actually, ive been wrestling with it for some time now
[11:36:12 AM] Phara: Kinda think it's case by case but as a general rule that is a good one
[11:36:32 AM] Phara: But keep your eye on vibe defo, it's not a deal breaker
[11:36:49 AM] Phara: Plus people just don't understand how much goes into the process
[11:37:09 AM] Phara: But a douche is a douche
[11:38:19 AM] z0mbie: Yea I'm not gunna play games if it's not a match.. don't need that
[11:38:21 AM] ink: i mean i read of his two sentences for what seems like ever.. and i could've interpreted it in a bunch of different ways.. but what kind of made me cringe was, that bargain shopper swap meet attitude. idk, still kind of upsets me
[11:41:06 AM] z0mbie: U want it for free?? Urn.. well hmm I dunno
[11:41:17 AM] ink: :D
[11:41:21 AM] ink: exactly
[11:41:53 AM] z0mbie: Oh wait I got the deal for you .. I give you 50 to take it
[11:42:02 AM] ink: lolololol
[11:42:05 AM] z0mbie: Urn thinking more like 109
[11:42:13 AM] ink: yes please rob me..
[11:42:21 AM] ink: and have my shoes
[11:42:32 AM] ink: and my coat
[11:42:48 AM] z0mbie: Ballpark please.. my house or more like my car
[11:42:56 AM] ink: (cwl)
[11:43:31 AM] z0mbie: Fml not a mentality I want tonight
[11:43:58 AM] ink: for real.. frame change!
[11:43:58 AM | Edited 11:44:07 AM] z0mbie: Walk in and be like bitch want it or not?
[11:44:05 AM] ink: lolol
[11:44:34 AM] ink: i need to watch some more tony robbins
[11:45:14 AM] z0mbie: Haha
[11:45:28 AM] z0mbie: Construct this mother fucker
[11:45:48 AM] ink: (flex)
[11:48:37 AM] nanna bot: any time u guys wanna bounce a situation off me hit me up i'll help best I can. we need the professional art biz thread again...
[11:49:24 AM] ink: yea
[11:50:01 AM] nanna bot: and Z if u never saw it look up a website called Clients from Hell. its funny and helps reinforce how common shit is in the design world
[11:52:39 AM] z0mbie: I have and it is indeed fitting
[11:52:40 AM] nanna bot: ah
[11:52:49 AM] nanna bot: hehehe cool
[11:53:17 AM] nanna bot: when I'm angry about a job I go to that site
[11:53:25 AM] nanna bot: makes me feel more sane
[11:54:35 AM] nanna bot: and that I'm not alone and clients are ignorant
but sadly part of the job is to educate them which is the part I hate and why I don't do web work for people who don't know what a URL is anymore
[11:55:19 AM] nanna bot: u become their personal fucking IT department :|
[11:58:06 AM | Edited 11:58:24 AM] ink: education through honest dialog without going full on aggro..
[11:58:43 AM] ink: gymnastics anyone?
[11:59:01 AM] nanna bot: it can be hard to make folks understand why intangibles like our time and experience are worth the price
[11:59:11 AM] ink: but nec
[11:59:12 AM] nanna bot: right?
[11:59:16 AM] ink: yes
[12:05:42 PM | Edited 12:10:58 PM] ink: i guess i just have to practice tolerance with those who don't know.. becuz i do see the disconnect. it does become exhausting pouring everything you have into your work, and then turn around and be extra wide open, pitching to someone who is trying to be frugal. //conundrum
[12:10:24 PM] nanna bot: and balance how hard u need funds with how much shit u wanna take ;)
[12:13:12 PM] nanna bot: starting out I was always hungry and let a lot of folks walk over me and eat up a lot of unpaid time. but I built up a rep and some sent me more clients....so its a tightrope, even when u get more established. and ive tried all methods of pricing, trying to get budgets from people first, etc....found I just use my intuition feel them out and decide the best approach these days
[12:13:25 PM] nanna bot: i will C&P this stuff to remake that thread
[12:14:00 PM] ink: yes, that would be awesome
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Re: The Business of Art

Postby ink » Sat Oct 08, 2016 2:54 pm

aah yes, so i might as well, add a bit more to my story because it continues on.

so i reached back out to the gentlemen.. apologized for possibly overlooking a chance for him to negotiate, basically told him, if you really want it.. lets talk, im sure there is a middle ground.

his response was essentially a low ball offer. so, while reassuring me not to get offended because the offer wasnt meant as a lowball offer and finishing off with a 'i know its worth alot more than that'..following with i can only offer you amount ___ because its all the expendable cash i have atm.. /rotfl then, attaches a bit of guilt. like, hey he is my sons idol, if you would like to make his year then...



Image



ok, so that is currently were im at.. i haven't responded, because tbh, im not really sure how /62
im sure i will look into this today, later on at some point... but i really did not want to be stuck on this maddening loop, with this bitter taste.
that said, i did explore a couple other options, thanks to my sister. so i might just respond with a counter offer to create 'to scale print' depending on how much it will cost me. that way, the kid is happy, the dad is happy and i get a little money and get to retain the original for a more serious art enthusiast. its interesting, because at first, everyone seems to be an enthusiast until $ is discussed and that dark cloud of doubt moves in to hover. i can literally, see countenances change, or rather, that moment when everything shifts and the enthusiast 2nd guesses everything. it is equally fascinating as it is, infuriating.
we are, what we allow to occupy us..





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Re: The Business of Art

Postby NaranjaRa » Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:33 pm

ink wrote:aah yes, so i might as well, add a bit more to my story because it continues on.

so i reached back out to the gentlemen.. apologized for possibly overlooking a chance for him to negotiate, basically told him, if you really want it.. lets talk, im sure there is a middle ground.

his response was essentially a low ball offer. so, while reassuring me not to get offended because the offer wasnt meant as a lowball offer and finishing off with a 'i know its worth alot more than that'..following with i can only offer you amount ___ because its all the expendable cash i have atm.. /rotfl then, attaches a bit of guilt. like, hey he is my sons idol, if you would like to make his year then...



Image



ok, so that is currently were im at.. i haven't responded, because tbh, im not really sure how /62
im sure i will look into this today, later on at some point... but i really did not want to be stuck on this maddening loop, with this bitter taste.
that said, i did explore a couple other options, thanks to my sister. so i might just respond with a counter offer to create 'to scale print' depending on how much it will cost me. that way, the kid is happy, the dad is happy and i get a little money and get to retain the original for a more serious art enthusiast. its interesting, because at first, everyone seems to be an enthusiast until $ is discussed and that dark cloud of doubt moves in to hover. i can literally, see countenances change, or rather, that moment when everything shifts and the enthusiast 2nd guesses everything. it is equally fascinating as it is, infuriating.


did this situation ever went any further? did you price some printing costs? did you offer him a payment plan? i r curious! :-D
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Re: The Business of Art

Postby Zombie » Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:46 pm

I've been the techy in the shadows for global corporations for years and only recently went balls deep into my own business.. my first client recently obtained seems to be lucrative in the sense of a relationship is building which i personally value more than the quick bux.. we hve worked out a price im happy with for my "cherry" contract but the true value of our work should come with more exposure within my niche.

it was a little rocky with the initial contact but i believe he trusts in my knowledge and knows im genuine. i would like to say the future is bright but im very aware we are still in the honeymoon period.
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Re: The Business of Art

Postby NaranjaRa » Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:51 pm

Zombie wrote:I've been the techy in the shadows for global corporations for years and only recently went balls deep into my own business.. my first client recently obtained seems to be lucrative in the sense of a relationship is building which i personally value more than the quick bux.. we hve worked out a price im happy with for my "cherry" contract but the true value of our work should come with more exposure within my niche.

it was a little rocky with the initial contact but i believe he trusts in my knowledge and knows im genuine. i would like to say the future is bright but im very aware we are still in the honeymoon period.


OMG YAYYYYYYY ahhh. that new-client smell.... :giggle: /rock

sheeeet ride that feeling. keep that boost of confidence it gives you. because that's what wins people over! when they can sense your passion for what you do, and communicate that you want to use it to help them...? you can get any project you want moving forward and building up. they remember you, too, and won't hesitate to pass your name on any chance they get.

(sun)
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Re: The Business of Art

Postby ink » Tue Oct 18, 2016 5:29 pm

i was just thinking that same thing..that moment when they realize just how much they need that special skillset or knowledge. that which is unique, to only you.
we are, what we allow to occupy us..





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Re: The Business of Art

Postby ink » Tue Oct 18, 2016 6:36 pm

NaranjaRa wrote:did this situation ever went any further? did you price some printing costs? did you offer him a payment plan? i r curious! :-D


ok so i thought for a while and i was troubled about it. isnt it odd though.. as i wrestle with questions of self worth.. i figured on principle alone, i could not take less than what i put into it, unless ofc it was gifted and this was not one of those cases. i just ended up telling him that, politely and followed up with, "im looking into getting some prints made that might be more within your price range. i will keep you posted."

he thanked me and i felt like i left the door open for future business, which was nice.
we are, what we allow to occupy us..





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Re: The Business of Art

Postby ink » Tue Oct 18, 2016 6:54 pm

i did reach out (big step for me) to a gentleman that used to frequent one of my old jobs. its interesting, because i used to run a pizza joint, and at this job i remember his order was always a huge pain.. u know, those special orders where one would always have to go way out of the way to complete it. my crew would always be furious, but for some reason i would always hook him up and with a smile. i humored his stories and followed his specific instructions with his order and just basically treated him with respect. and back then i was still kind of a dick. now before i quit that job, he handed me his business card and he specializes in print reproduction. little did i know that it would work out in my favor in the not so distant future..

so i reached out to Joe, and we meet up to discuss one my paintings for starters. ends up, he wants to do a bunch of different prints (various papers/canvas) and sizes, free of charge to start!! we will then go over costs for production, type of papers i like, sizes, etc.. and just continue to move forward from there! he genuinely wants to start a proper business relationship because he said that he trusts me.
/oh well... that was empowering.

this is huge for me! i right in the middle of a rock and a hard place, but this could be a major boost in my upward mobility.

so yea.. (sun)
i just have to stay the course and push
we are, what we allow to occupy us..





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Re: The Business of Art

Postby NaranjaRa » Thu Oct 20, 2016 11:42 am

ink wrote:
NaranjaRa wrote:did this situation ever went any further? did you price some printing costs? did you offer him a payment plan? i r curious! :-D


ok so i thought for a while and i was troubled about it. isnt it odd though.. as i wrestle with questions of self worth.. i figured on principle alone, i could not take less than what i put into it, unless ofc it was gifted and this was not one of those cases. i just ended up telling him that, politely and followed up with, "im looking into getting some prints made that might be more within your price range. i will keep you posted."

he thanked me and i felt like i left the door open for future business, which was nice.


sounds like you handled it gracefully and without closing any doors - perfect!

and you totally rocked one of my personal rules: if you have to tell someone "no" - that they cannot get exactly what they want from you for whatever reason - always always always immediately present them with an alternative option, substitute, or similar solution (and the reason why it's also good for them!).

ink wrote:i did reach out (big step for me) to a gentleman that used to frequent one of my old jobs. its interesting, because i used to run a pizza joint, and at this job i remember his order was always a huge pain.. u know, those special orders where one would always have to go way out of the way to complete it. my crew would always be furious, but for some reason i would always hook him up and with a smile. i humored his stories and followed his specific instructions with his order and just basically treated him with respect. and back then i was still kind of a dick. now before i quit that job, he handed me his business card and he specializes in print reproduction. little did i know that it would work out in my favor in the not so distant future..

so i reached out to Joe, and we meet up to discuss one my paintings for starters. ends up, he wants to do a bunch of different prints (various papers/canvas) and sizes, free of charge to start!! we will then go over costs for production, type of papers i like, sizes, etc.. and just continue to move forward from there! he genuinely wants to start a proper business relationship because he said that he trusts me.
/oh well... that was empowering.

this is huge for me! i right in the middle of a rock and a hard place, but this could be a major boost in my upward mobility.

so yea.. (sun)
i just have to stay the course and push


BOOM look at that! (sun) love it. love when things happen like that...some seemingly insignificant acquaintance eventually comes back into your life full-circle with major purpose. great example of how being good to people can come back to really help you out sometimes when you'd least expect it, so best to treat everyone well because you could be holding the door or carrying a box for your next customer/client!
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Re: The Business of Art

Postby girlapaloo » Thu Oct 20, 2016 5:04 pm

ink wrote:
Spoiler: show
i did reach out (big step for me) to a gentleman that used to frequent one of my old jobs. its interesting, because i used to run a pizza joint, and at this job i remember his order was always a huge pain.. u know, those special orders where one would always have to go way out of the way to complete it. my crew would always be furious, but for some reason i would always hook him up and with a smile. i humored his stories and followed his specific instructions with his order and just basically treated him with respect. and back then i was still kind of a dick. now before i quit that job, he handed me his business card and he specializes in print reproduction. little did i know that it would work out in my favor in the not so distant future..

so i reached out to Joe, and we meet up to discuss one my paintings for starters. ends up, he wants to do a bunch of different prints (various papers/canvas) and sizes, free of charge to start!! we will then go over costs for production, type of papers i like, sizes, etc.. and just continue to move forward from there! he genuinely wants to start a proper business relationship because he said that he trusts me.
/oh well... that was empowering.

this is huge for me! i right in the middle of a rock and a hard place, but this could be a major boost in my upward mobility.

so yea.. (sun)
i just have to stay the course and push


That is great news! (sun)
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Re: The Business of Art

Postby ink » Mon Oct 24, 2016 7:36 pm

Spoiler: show
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we are, what we allow to occupy us..





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Re: The Business of Art

Postby Zombie » Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:07 pm

ink wrote:
Spoiler: show
Image



/star /star Thats is awesome..
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Re: The Business of Art

Postby ink » Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:06 pm

baby steps bro..
we are, what we allow to occupy us..





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Re: The Business of Art

Postby NaranjaRa » Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:44 pm

ink wrote:
Spoiler: show
Image


SWEEEEEEET. that's an excellent plug. /rock
great photos, too! the print looks nice...wow. what a hookup!!!

make sure to save that for your portfolio!
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Re: The Business of Art

Postby ink » Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:07 am

/nod
we are, what we allow to occupy us..





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